(satire?)
The United Kingdom Independence Party has demanded that clocks should not be put forward one hour tomorrow morning, but that all clocks in the UK should be put back at least 50 years instead.
According to a statement released today by UKIP, the party is in favour of putting the clocks back to a time when women knew their place, gay people were just people who were happy and foreigners were only ever seen through the gunsights of a B52 bomber.
However a spokesperson for the coalition government dismissed the idea, stating road safety concerns:
“With the huge amount of car crashes ministers have been causing recently, it’s essential more than ever that we avoid any more dangerous u-turns or maneuvers that might put our re-election in danger.”
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Yes I know B52 bombers were American not British but I’m claiming artistic licence.
Please feel free to comment.
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Pride's Purge 
I de be happy for the clock to go back 50 yrs we could right a lot of wrongs that way
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Reblogged this on Beastrabban’s Weblog.
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I liked it when they were a one issue party. On that they had my vote but with the multitude of u turns, foot in mouth comments, and the last straw being gay rights, I’m back to voting for “None of the above”
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Which U turns would they be? had you thoughtfully prepped you would have read the piece where it is the coalition that have done the U turns. UKIP has never been a one issue party you must be thinking of the greens. There is however a point you should remember UKIP listens to its members concerns when they are voiced, unlike the other parties who tell their members what to think.
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barry
“There is however a point you should remember UKIP listens to its members concerns when they are voiced, unlike the other parties who tell their members what to think” ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, you are such a comedian… so just what are ukip’s policies on ending corruption in british politics….
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Ha ha ha what would you know bout listening why are you not up in arms at the corruption in British politics being carried out by the tories labour and libdems who are in power, try asking them why they accept it, or even tell us which one of the parties you support is doing about it. UKIP get rid of their rotten apples, that is and always has been the policy, what do the others do, oh yes that would be nothing, so your question is, as ever, aimed in the wrong direction. Now either answer your own question regarding those parties in Westminster or turn the record off.
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barry
why don’t you turn your anti-european rhetoric off, you brought the subject of corruption in politics up in ukip’s regard to europe, not me….i merely made a logical extension to your point…if ukip want to end corruption in european politics, why not in british politics? so how will they?…what are their policies for doing so?…are they even standing for uk parliamentary elections, at all? if they are they must also have policies for dealing with corruption in british politics, or what are they saying, we’ll wait and see?
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They’ve never been a one issue party, they only advertise one policy because it’s the easiest to generate scare mongering from.
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Well clearly you like the idea of corruption in Westminster because you are not making any suggestions as to how you will end it, although you expected me to be able to which was your first question not skips policies, and yes there is corruption endemic at brussells but you also seem to be in favour of that, so you blather on about it but are doing nothing yourself you are not even attempting to find out if your cli is true and who is doing it. I presume you will be going to every meeting of every party and asking the question of them, that way you can report back here with your findings.
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This string started with an attack on UKIP, why don’t you ask the question of the person who launched the attack, you have no idea yourself of how to deal with the corruption you haven’t asked any party that is currently at Westminster what they are doing about it, so we can assume that you are a ukip supporter who believes that on day one they will completely clear up the mess we have been left in by the labconlibdum party. Yes UKIP has is and will be standing for uk elections, after all you probably haven’t noticed as you seem to be completely lacking in knowledge of politics, but UKIP has been taking votes off all three parties and are doing rather well which is why the sheeple are getting concerned as they have no knowledge or understanding of the party.
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barry
i am asking for youkippers policies, not yours personally, unless you are ukip?…if you are then i am also asking you what their/ukip’s/your policies are on ending corruption in british politics…they are the party of promised land, we’ll wait and see, see what’s popular, lets leave nasty europe, rotten foreigners, look what they have done to our beloved country….now where have i heard all of this ukip rhetoric before?
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UKIP gets rid of the people who cause problems in the party, when they get into power then they can ensure that the Dennis Mc Shanes of this world are brought to book, what do you want robocop? the major corrupt practices at Westminster are those involved with safe seats being given to family members of sitting or retired MP’s, or school/universtiy pals, when the person involved has no experience in real life, so UKIP will have no problems with that area however your favoured party will continue to do it.
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barry
are you now saying that you do not support ukip? because i don’t believe you, if you are in fact saying that you don’t support ukip..but i do see that this is ukip’s policy of hyde and seek politics, we never meant that, you misunderstood, you failed to comprehend, this is what you should really be asking or saying this is really what you think ie telling the other what they meant and what they should think…you seem therefore to be a typical ukip supporter to me…you certainly quack like one…
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I don’t bleat because I’m not one of the sheeple such as yourself I have been to many UKIP meetings and haven’t heard any quacks other than from the ducks outside of the meeting places, as I have mentioned before you do not read you see what your premeditated thought s based on your belief in propaganda spread by people with their own agendas like Clegg. You claim you don’t tell others what to think but insist by your continual hate campaign against UKIP, that there is no corruption in the old parties in the same manner that the tories are saying they hate the elderly incapacitated disabled and unemployed with the “for hardworking people” campaign because others are excluded as being not worthwhile. You really need to learn a bit about a subject before you sound off that you think you know about it.
http://www.thecommentator.com/search?utf8=✓&search=Corruption As you are so concerned you will find enough here to keep you occupied.
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barry
it is a pity, that you belong to a party, that claims it is committed to ending corruption in europe…which judging by the u turns it constantly makes it is doubtful that anyone can tell…on a totally false premise which it MUST be if the same european anti-corruption party has no policies to end corruption in british politics…i therefore will continue to dismiss your claims that ukip is the anti-corruption party, of the uk or of european politics..and will simply say anything to get votes, as you have also proved beyond doubt, in your posts on ukip….
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It’s a pity you are so incapable of doing anything other than trying to blacken UKIP’s name your grasp on reality is rather tenuous, you haven’t answered my question about what the incumbent parties are doing to end corruption, although it is obvious that UKIP sacks anyone who acts in this disreputable manner. Your hatred of the people who want to improve life for Britains citizens is rather odd. I suppose none of the other parties has ever made a U turn except that they have of course but your blinkered hatred of a party which wants to end the tyranny of the empire in brussells is the only one you fear.
What have I aid in my posts :- That UKIP wants to get us out of the corruption ridden democratically deficient eussr, I agree that will get a lot of votes, after all that is the basic requirement to get in a position to do something the tories labour and lib dems try to buy their votes, with tax cuts for the rich, where is your rage at that, there isn’t any you don’t have any idea you have just decided to follow the media and try to denigrate a party which wants to return our nation to independence.
There are no positives for the British people to remain in the eussr, other than for the politicians who either work there, like clegg did, or have an easy life rubber stamping the edicts from there.
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barry
i must point out that it is you who have blackened ukip’s name, i merely responded to your claims of solving corruption in politics…you continue to reference other political parties, condems, labour, which i feel as negative about, as i now do ukip, now that you have fully exposed them to me, for what the truly stand for….condems labour being crap, does not make ukip good..they are all crap….but i’ve already told you that i am into human perma-culture, i detest politics, because it is so corrupt…i asked you to let me know of ukip’s policies to solve corruption in britsh politics…i gather from your reluctance to answer that question, there are NONE…
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Oh dear me the misguided try to blame the ones who are right yet again, you are not only well and truly into politics you are very cab able of lying about the party you fear most, the only one that has any chance of ever getting the UK back on its feet, and away from the would be imperial governance of Brussells, clearly you have fell for your party whether it is con lab or lib dem’s propaganda. What are you on about human perma culture is the something you made up because there is no such thing as a perm culture it is fluid by nature. Sounds like Liberal claptrap to me.
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I can write 100000000 plus words on what is wrong with the tories/labour and lib dems now they have become tories ,I can only assume Ukip will be as bad or nowhere near as bad. The chance to find out is getting my vote.
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barry
make up your mind one minute you claim i know nothing about politics next you claim that i do, typical ukip though…it’s perma-culture….https://www.permaculture.org.uk/ so i made it up did i? and also you call me a liar coz i don’t agree with you, how abusive….
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As I said your Human Perma-culture doesn’t exist it is a hippy farm that is charging you to do what exactly, I’m sure the real farmers wouldn’t be interested in it, it’s to much like one one of these quasi educations retreats that charge you a fortune to find yourself. So you call me liar even though you clearly have ignored every answer I gave you because it didn’t fit your pre existing political motivations.
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barry
you actually said it did not exist, that i made it up, i have proved you to be wrong, you cannot even bring yourself to admit that/acknowledge that…many farmers now do use permaculture techniques…you have shown yourself to be very prejudiced too ideas outside your concrete operational focus…you are extremely narrow minded…but then you do support one of the main stream political parties, so i am not surprised one bit..
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You have done no such thing, you said and I quote “i’ve already told you that i am into human perma-culture,” so what is HUMAN perm-culture, are you cultivating people, or do you fabricate ss much t=you forget what you have said.
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barry
if i presented evidence, you would crush/dismiss it in any case, but i do not need to as you have made the original claim regarding political corruption….you said i made perma culture up, yet i have proved that i have not…as ukip will field candidates in the uk elections, they must also show how they will solve corruption in british politics that they desire to be a part of, and you have failed to produce any evidence that they will….if they loathe european political corruption so much, they will also loathe corruption in uk politics, that they are so desperate to be part of…
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Reblogged this on redcarrol.
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I repeat you said HUMAN perm-culture just scroll up to this :- overburdenddonkeysaid:March 30, 2014 at 7:26 pm and read your own words, that is a manufactured claim. If you are concerned about corruption at Westminster, and as you claim not to be interested in politics another manufactured claim go here and sign, https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/jail-m-ps-who-commit-crime-whilst-serving-in-parliament?bucket&source=facebook-share-button&time=1396128952
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barry
you are a nitpicking idiot…
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A bit like the tories who scare monger that if they don’t ensure those at the bottom get nothing so that they can cut taxes for the ones at the top we would all be in trouble. Or Labour with the scaremongering that we would lose 3 million jobs if we leave the eussr, or the lib dems who just scare us that they would have any power ever again, or the green scare mongering based on dodgy science.
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Ah I see, if I show what you actually claimed is worn I am nitpicking, but you are perfect in every detail.
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no! barry
you have demonstrated how easy it is for ukip to scapegoat others…ie europe, for being corrupt whilst totally ignoring the political corruption on our own doorstep..if ukip were serious about political corruption they would have a complete package of anti-corruption policies and measures, they don’t, and not isolationist policies as they now have…
ukip wants others to do their dirty work for them, leave europe and end up isolated with the likes of ukip in charge…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics? i don’t hide behind others, as you do, i deal with corruption head on as and when required…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics?
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It is odd that you have missed the irrationality of your statement, you have been making wild unsubstantiated claims about UKIP, but find it objectionable when you are corrected or people ask about other parties, as if they are perfect, Take Lord Warner for example a labour peer who has called for charges to be introduced to see the GP or go to hospital, now most people would say that is against what the labour party stand for and is a U turn another step towards the privatisation heir outsourcing started. However most old labour supporters would be horrified at that stance yet it is the one they are now using. You keep asking what UKIP is doing to stop corruption well they are doing everything they can, despite the lack of influence any nation or party truly has in the eussr, in Brussells you however don’t think your party, and you clearly are political, is doing in Westminster, because you know they are part of the problem not the solution. So what are your parties intentions for covering up corruption in Westminster, tell us that.
You are not doing anything to prevent corruption you are wailing that its there and there is nothing you can do so you want others to do it for you.
Now answer the question what is your party the lib dems or the tories doing to end corruption at westminster where they are all able to speak up about it. You can’t because there is no policy form any of them, they don’t even accept that there is a problem.
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no! barry
you have demonstrated how easy it is for ukip to scapegoat others…ie europe, for being corrupt whilst totally ignoring the political corruption on our own doorstep..if ukip were serious about political corruption they would have a complete package of anti-corruption policies and measures, they don’t, and not isolationist policies as they now have…
ukip wants others to do their dirty work for them, leave europe and end up isolated with the likes of ukip in charge…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics? i don’t hide behind others, as you do, i deal with corruption head on as and when required…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics?
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no! barry
my 1st question was made 29 march 2014 @ 2.59 pm was as follows..
barry
so just what are ukips policies to solve corruption in british politics?
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I’m not ignoring the corruption, have you signed the petition I posted for you yet to address that very thing, you however seem to be blasé about the massive corruption endemic in the eussr in brussells and so far have not put forewords one single idea as to how you, or your favoured party are going to stop it. You want UKIP to take all the flak for the shortcomings of the old parties whilst continuing to allow the embers to carry on ripping us off. UKIP have MEP’s they can and are highlighting the corruption there, they do not yet have any mp’s and therefore no clout at home, when you only have one place to half a battle you choose that one, and wait until the opportunity arises to fight the other ones. So just what is your parties policy for ending the internal corruption and that of the other westminster parties? What are their policies and what have they done to end it in Brussells? Oh they can’t they don’t have a leader of the political groups they have to be a part of in brussells so they have no voice at all.
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barry
i don’t have to justify my self to any political party, if they want my vote they have to earn my vote..there is no point in changing my reply..until i consider it has been reasonably answered to my satisfaction..you have clearly demonstrated how easy it is for ukip to scapegoat others…ie europe, for being corrupt whilst totally ignoring the political corruption on our own doorstep..if ukip were serious about political corruption they would have a complete package of anti-corruption policies and measures, they don’t, and not isolationist policies as they now have…
ukip wants others to do their dirty work for them, leave europe and end up isolated with the likes of ukip in charge…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics? i don’t hide behind others, as you do, i deal with corruption head on as and when required…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics? i will continue to fight corruption where ever i find it…
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barry
i don’t have to justify my self to any political party, if they want my vote they have to earn my vote..there is no point in changing my reply, much..until i consider it has been reasonably answered to my satisfaction..you have clearly demonstrated how easy it is for ukip to scapegoat others…ie europe, for being corrupt whilst totally ignoring the political corruption on our own doorstep..if ukip were serious about political corruption they would have a complete package of anti-corruption policies and measures, they don’t, and not isolationist policies as they now have…
ukip wants others to do their dirty work for them, leave europe and end up isolated with the likes of ukip in charge…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics? i don’t hide behind others, as you do, i deal with corruption head on as and when required…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics?
i will continue to fight corruption where ever i find it…tackling corruption starts here right now on our own doorsteps that is local to you and local to me…it starts from grassroots level by empowering local people into holding the corrupt to account…it starts with every european individual/global individual knowing their human rights…and saying no! to corruption…we don’t need to vote for the end of corruption, we end corruption, by acting against it as individuals…we do not need any political steering group acting for us or telling us what is best for us, what is for our own good, that is insulting at best, our culture is corrupt….to end corruption requires empowered individual actions…see empowering work of dr bob Johnson ,dr alice miller, dr dorathy rowe, robert whitaker, dr joanna moncrieff et al….politician’s don’t have any right to tell people what corruption is or guide us on what corruption is, although some may well think/tell us that they do, and they certainly have no right to tell us where that corruption is, that is the road to fascism…it is only in/by empowering individuals to act against it will corruption be defeated….
http://edinburghagainstpoverty.org.uk/
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So your answer is you do absolutely nothing yourself, and you want other people to do all the hard work for you then. You have clearly demonstrated that your only aim is to try to decry UKIP, who ultimately can not be held responsible for any corruption at westminster. Why is it that you are totally incapable of understanding your own position, you are in favour of corruption continuing at westminster, until UKIP gets there as clearly it is only UKIP you trust to sort it out, just like their policy at europe is to highlight the problems, unlike the influence free conlablibdum green parties. Now for the last time what are you doing about the corruption that you claim bothers you so much, I gave you a link which apparently you haven’t even bothered to use as part of my input, so you blather on about something that you are not even bothered about doing something about yourself. Typical of the europhile sit back and let it happen to you attitude.
If you had any understanding of how criminality is addressed you wouldn’t be making such a fool of yourself here.
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barry i clearly said this….
no! barry
you have demonstrated how easy it is for ukip to scapegoat others…ie europe, for being corrupt whilst totally ignoring the political corruption on our own doorstep..if ukip were serious about political corruption they would have a complete package of anti-corruption policies and measures, they don’t, and not isolationist policies as they now have…
ukip wants others to do their dirty work for them, leave europe and end up isolated with the likes of ukip in charge…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics? i don’t hide behind others, as you do, i deal with corruption head on as and when required…so just what are ukip’s policies for ending corruption in british politics?
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Maybe if you read what I write instead of what you wrote you would have a better understanding, you have clearly demonstrated you want to scapegoat UKIP for the corruption you have claimed exists in Westminster. You think that UKIP should not be fighting corruption in Europe where they have an opportunity to fight it but should be fighting where they do not, not really a valid argument when you apply an iota of logic is it.?
You expect UKIP to do all the heavy lifting because it is obvious that the three parties currently in a position to act are not, instead you hide behind your anonymity, and can not present a complete package of anti corruption in Westminster policies for any party in power in government or outside it but expect UKIP to be the party to do it. I suppose I should be pleased that you consider UKIP to be the only party to be able to make a difference, because you continued demand that they do is only reinforcing that idea, wellI’ll tell you now what you can do to end corruption, and that is to Vote for the only party you consider to be able to end it, which is UKIP.
What on earth makes you think the UK would be isolated outside what is a group of 28 nations, don’t you realise there are far more nations out there, and with our place back at the WTO instead of having the eussr negotiate for us we would have far more international clout.
It seems you base all your “thought” on what the media tells you to.
Stop hiding behind you anonymity and tell us why you think UKIP is the best party to solve the corruption issue.
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It’s a pity you are so incapable of doing anything other than trying to blacken UKIP’s name your grasp on reality is rather tenuous, you haven’t answered my question about what the incumbent parties are doing to end corruption, although it is obvious that UKIP sacks anyone who acts in this disreputable manner. Your hatred of the people who want to improve life for Britains citizens is rather odd. I suppose none of the other parties has ever made a U turn except that they have of course but your blinkered hatred of a party which wants to end the tyranny of the empire in brussells is the only one you fear.
What have I aid in my posts :- That UKIP wants to get us out of the corruption ridden democratically deficient eussr, I agree that will get a lot of votes, after all that is the basic requirement to get in a position to do something the tories labour and lib dems try to buy their votes, with tax cuts for the rich, where is your rage at that, there isn’t any you don’t have any idea you have just decided to follow the media and try to denigrate a party which wants to return our nation to independence.
There are no positives for the British people to remain in the eussr, other than for the politicians who either work there, like clegg did, or have an easy life rubber stamping the edicts from there.
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It’s a pity you are so incapable of doing anything other than trying to blacken UKIP’s name your grasp on reality is rather tenuous, you haven’t answered my question about what the incumbent parties are doing to end corruption, although it is obvious that UKIP sacks anyone who acts in this disreputable manner. Your hatred of the people who want to improve life for Britains citizens is rather odd. I suppose none of the other parties has ever made a U turn except that they have of course but your blinkered hatred of a party which wants to end the tyranny of the empire in brussells is the only one you fear.
What have I said in my posts :-
That UKIP wants to get us out of the corruption ridden democratically deficient eussr, I agree that will get a lot of votes, after all that is the basic requirement to get in a position to do something the tories labour and lib dems try to buy their votes, with tax cuts for the rich, where is your rage at that, there isn’t any you don’t have any idea you have just decided to follow the media and try to denigrate a party which wants to return our nation to independence.
There are no positives for the British people to remain in the eussr, other than for the politicians who either work there, like clegg did, or have an easy life rubber stamping the edicts from there.
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barry ukip
oh i see that’s your answer to my question is it to claim i’m incompetent…for asking, so just what are ukip’s policies to end corruption in british politics?
somehow by asking that question i have blackened ukips untarnished reputation, and this justified your tiraid towards me, for asking a very simple and honest question…so is this what we can expect from ukip if they don’t like the question, yes it is…
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No I’m saying you are just reading what you write, and post over and over despite having been given the answer on numerous occasions, you are deliberately demanding that UKIP solve a problem rather than asking why the parties who are responsible are continuing to carry out the action although UKIP is in no position to sort the problem out at the present, then you moan because I point out that UKIP is addressing the same problem although a far greater on in a place where it can, why anyone would think that UKIP would deal with the same problem differently at wesminster than brussells is beyond my comprehension unless you consider they should only behave honestly in one form of governance. Now tell me which party will you vote for the one doing something about corruption in europe or the ones not doing anything at all about corruption in europe or westminster. Somehow I doubt in your case you will have the sense to go for the one against corruption.
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barry ukip
i do read what you write BUT I DON’T AGREE WITH IT, so i ask again….
oh i see that’s your answer to my question is it to claim i’m incompetent…
for asking this question, and only this question….
>>>>>>>>so, just what are ukip’s policies to end corruption in british politics?<<<<this is the question i ask
somehow by asking that question i have blackened ukips untarnished reputation, and this justified your tiraid towards me, for asking a very simple and honest question…so is this what we can expect from ukip if they don’t like the question, yes it is…you obviously have problems departing from the party line and blame me for that…
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Well it depends on how you consider the word incompetent I suppose, clearly you seem to lack the insight into your repetitive behaviour in asking the same question over and over even though you have been given the answer and are apparently incapable of providing an answer regarding he parties you are not bothered about being corrupt. Whether you agree with my view or not is irrelevant, as we all know you can lead a donkey to water but you can’t make it drink.
You have had the response to your question repetitively, you still haven’t made a single attempt to answer mine, why do you support UKIP to end the corruption you are concerned about in Westminster, as you don’t know how to deal with it with the current parties ensconced there. Once again UKIP is fighting the corruption in brussells, ukip will fight the corruption in westminster as soon as it gets the chance to influence it, which part of that is beyond your comprehension?
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barry ukip
you will never answer my 1 question…you want only the answers and questions that you want to hear…
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barry ukip
post the answer to my question as i have asked you to do…is the above statement it? because i can see nowhere as being stated in your above statement this is ukip’s policy on ending corruption in british politics….all you do is keep endlessly repeating the ukip diatribe….
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ps barry ukip
my answer is above…..
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Still the repetition when are you answering my question about why the three parties in power have done nothing have no plans and yet you want UKIP to sort it out, either answer my question or shut up, I have more than amply answered yours the fact that I’m not saying what your prejudice wants me to, is not going to get me to say otherwise now either answer my questions or stop posting. Not listening is one of the problems endemic with europhiles as a whole apparently.
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Your answer is nowhere, you want an answer that I have given you but it doesn’t suit your prejudice, so you do not accept it, I have asked you questions and your answer is the repetitive drivel either answer the questions I have asked or stop posting. I have answered you more than often enough now, it is your turn to answer.
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barry ukip
so just what are ukips policies to solve corruption in british politics?
you claimed that ukip would solve euro corruption, and as the other 3 parties are not in the room, i’m asking you, barry ukip..so just what are ukip’s policies be to solve corruption in british politics, i take ukip ARE standing for the uk parliamentary elections, and therefore have a position on it? well they must have as they are they according to you are the foremost anti-corruption party…or is it a different sort of corruption in the uk, a better sort?..
i have also answered the question to what i DO below, i have even posted to draw your attention to my considered answer…
you could tell me that they don’t have any polices to do that i suppose….but you have chosen not to, but instead go into a fury with me for daring to ask…
you now tell me to stop posting???
btw how many euro mp’s do they have now?
i mean you are claiming ukip to be saviors of the people and have posted many times how people are not doing enough for themselves or getting it right, and only you and ukip know best how to do it….
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You have had your answer on multiple occasions, you haven’t made any attempt to answer my questions you just repeat the same drivel, I haven’t gone into any sort of fury, perhaps that is you looking in the mirror because you have no answers to my questions. Your so called considered answer is to just repeat your question which has been more than adequately answered, so if you do not want to enter into a reasoned debate but just repeat yourself there is no real reason to think you have any answers, just the same question for which you seem incapable of accepting the answer because you don’t want to accept that it is correct and that you are just being a shill.
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barry ukip
so i take it the foremost anti-corruption party ukip, that is standing for uk elections has no policy for solving corruption in british politics then…my answer is still below, have you read it? you know the one with the link to ecap….
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barry ukip
and you mr no hate who thinks ECT and meds for mental health problems are a good idea, god help us all…
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I am pleased that you realise UKIP is the only anti corruption party, it has taken long enough for you to realise that, the other three are pro eussr so by definition are pro corruption. Your answer below is nothing to do with the questions I have asked you whatsoever, you clearly have difficulty in accepting answers you don’t want to hear, but then you post a link to something not relevant. Maybe a link to Lord Warner wanting to charge for NHS care would be closer to what you want.
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You thinking the eussr is good for us, with people like you around even a pretend man made conceptual being can’t help us. I take it you dislike the medications, which allow people to partake in society because you have had to take them, this is the group most likely to be against them, followed by the pc brigade who have never seen someone suffering with a florid psychotic episode at any time in their life. ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works, I’ve seen both sides of it, with a man who had one treatment a month and was for the most part stable, until it was banned from use a the hospital when he wound up having large doses of anti psychotics and was out of it most of the time, I have also seen people be far more confused after treatment than before. So once again you are making inane comments about a subject matter which I doubt you have any professional background in.
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barry ukip
said 25 3 14 @ 3.05pm
……he clearly has religious delusions and by definition delusions are concrete and can not be altered by reality, only medication, or Electroconvulsive therapy could alter those evil views based on an illiterate understanding of whatever religious tome he is reading, considerd argument will not alter his outlook.
So barry once again you are making inane comments about a subject matter which I doubt you have any professional background in…..
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So which part of my post is wrong in any way? please educate us with your undoubted superior knowledge on the subject matter, explain why what I have said about a psychotic condition is incorrect otherwise keep your ignorant liberal comments to yourself.
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barry ukip
i don’t have to explain anything to you, people are free to do their own research…
i doubt you would understand in any case and/or accept any explanation i offered….what you have stated is there for all to see and make their own minds up on…..i might well come back to the subjects you have raised at a later date though!
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Translation for OB donkey’s last post. OB donkey can’t explain why he posted a piece of unsubstantiated Junk, because there is no research to back up what he claimed. He has no cognition in the field of Psychiatry whatsoever. H just follows whatever is popular in sensationalist media articles and treats them as being reliable. He might actually try to find something out about psychotic conditions, and will never reply because he will find that the actual experts and the PC brigade are at opposite ends of the medical spectrum.
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barry ukip
you could not be more wrong if you tried….i will as i have said get back to it later…..
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I couldn’t be more wrong, because I am not wrong in the first place, being more wrong would indicate that I was, and the truth is I am correct.
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barry ukip
for general information….
i will post with reference to no1 post ….”You thinking the eussr is good for us, with people like you around even a pretend man made conceptual being can’t help us.” and your comments therein and no 2 post… “barry ukip
said 25 3 14 @ 3.05pm
……he clearly has religious delusions and by definition delusions are concrete and can not be altered by reality…..”
but, 1st a preamble….
http://www.soteria.freeuk.com/176_16-18.pdf i want your views specifically on this link..i’ll see what your reply yields, before considering in which vein to continue in…
i will always reference the views and empirical evidences of renowned experts in psychiatric fields..ie those who actually cure mental health problems…i have never as you have stated never been on meds for mental health purposes/conditions…i also have qualifications in psychology…
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Donkey yet again you are attempting to evade answering any questions by posing a question. I’m not even going to bother looking at a link where there are experts who “cure mental health problems”, because there is no possibility of this and clearly those claiming otherwise must be by definition charlatans, I wonder how much they charge for their snake oil treatments, if you are, as you claim to be a psychologist, then your expertise would lie in the treatment of the neuroses not psychoses, but as you don’t relies that I find your clam to be highly unlikely.
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goader barry ukip i say what is true, got it…who demanded i explain…
“Translation for OB donkey’s last post. OB donkey can’t explain why he posted a piece of unsubstantiated Junk, because there is no research to back up what he claimed. He has no cognition in the field of Psychiatry whatsoever. H just follows whatever is popular in sensationalist media articles and treats them as being reliable. He might actually try to find something out about psychotic conditions, and will never reply because he will find that the actual experts and the PC brigade are at opposite ends of the medical spectrum.”
well their you go folks, mental health expert barry, who denounces me and my particular expertise, that he if you read his posts said that i didn’t have, amongst many other derogatory statements, towards me, and i have shown that i do have, expertise in this subject….
he even demanded an explanation from myself on this subject…which i attempted to try to give, and can’t even admit that he was wrong to say those things as can be clearly shown he did, in his posts to me…can’t face truth, and prefers to bury his head even deeper into the sand….
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Donkey you can repeat the same nonsense over and over and it will not be true, you clearly are not qualified in this area at all, your answers are not those that would be expected from someone with any expertise in the area, you demand answers while never giving any yourself, then complain that others ask you for answers even after they have replied to your questions on numerous occasions you think making unfounded statements means it is true. Now just for once answer a question, do you think you are clever by pretending to be an expert on things you have no idea about.
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barry ukip
i will no longer attempt to explain anything to you….i thank you for explaining ukip’s agenda and relish this extra insight….
btw, just passionately curious what are ukip’s views on scientology?
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Well Donkey, as you have never attempted to explain anything I don’t think I will perceive any variation in your comments whatsoever then, I am pleased that you have attained a level of insight into the ridiculous idea of voting for the status quo with the old parties, why would anyone bother to have any views on scientology?.
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barry ukip
i will not attempt to explain, i will however make statements as follows…be reminded that i will never vote for ukip, condems, nor labour, and i will actively discourage anyone from doing so….
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Well you haven’t managed to explain anything so far, but if you are a green that explains a lot.
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barry, chop, change, u turn, that would make a ballerina dizzy, ukip…
well that’s the sum of ukip’s argument have no firm policies of your own, and and try to make all others look bad so by default you kid yourselves you are the saviors of the people…get lost with your draconian views…..
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Not at all but I am at least educating you, your comments used to be that ukip was a one concern party now you accept there are policies what is wrong with UKIP policies which particular ones don’t you like, are you in favour of HS2, do you consider the lack of democratic control is a good thing. Do you think the bloated governance of the nhs where no one knows who is responsible for what other thn hunt who claims he isn’t responsible for anything, is a good thing, or that we are giving away millions to europe whilst our hospitals are struggling the police is being cut local governance is having its budgets cut, and the rich are getting tax cuts are good things, because UKIP is against all of these matters.
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barry ukip
i am not interest in your crap, you have no firm policies and make them up as you go along…you think that you are the only person with valid opinions…ukip has no polices for dealing with corruption in british politics if they did have, i would read and consider them, but as they lack firm opinion, other than to react to scandal, i would be reluctant to read it in any case..but alas ukip have no interest in democracy…only if we say it, it must be true behaviorism….i will respond to your posts in the future as and when required…
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p s barry ukip
your views on mental health treatment, out comes are old fashioned, archaic, utterly confused, show no knowledge of mental health issues and their right and proper treatments…all are 100% provably curable….
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Your views Donkey would have been prevalent when Bedlam was open, you show no insight into the reality of mental health issues you claim that mental health issues are all 100% curable with no medical input whatsoever apparently, so clearly your delusions haven’t been cured.
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barry ukip
once again you make false claims…
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No Donkey what I say is based on facts not on the warbling of a PC ignoramus with no reality issues, No one with Brain failure has ever been cured, no one with a Schizophrenic condition has ever been cured no one with a psychopathology has ever been cured, in fact the claim of 10% curable is so far from reality it doesn’t even make the fiction section.
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barry ukip
a mental health problem called brain failure, that’s new, you truly aren’t an expert….
schizophrenia is provably curable, you name it is curable…do your own research, sound bytes, as you won’t let me explain it in my way, are useless at conveying complex, detailed info that will come under your ignorant and reluctant perusal…as i have to do things your way, what ever that is, your way, will chop and change like the weather….do your own research, sound bytes, are not the place for dissertations, cooperation is required and you will not consent to it, your loss…it is not my job to do your work, as you so obviously expect others to do for you…nor my job to educate you…do it yourself unless you are afraid to learn that is….
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As I said you have no idea of the subject matter whatsoever, Brain failure is the term for what used to be called Dementia and has been in use for the last 20 years, it is hardly a “new one” is it. the Schizophrenias are not curable, but can be controlled by medication and ECT used to be very effective before the PC brigade with no knowledge of the subject started spouting nonsense that talking therapies worked better. There is no accepted evidence of any cure, only snake oil salesmen making a fortune out of the gullible. So you can cure Gas gangrene, Parkinsons disease, Myalgic Encephalitis, Burghers syndrome, Autism, Multiple sclerosis, and every genetic condition can you? that shows your ignorance of the subject matter, it is you that chops and changes except in your repetitive asking of the same questions and failure to answer a single one, except with ideas that border on the insane.
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barry ukip
dementia et al…are not MHP’s they are organic tissue diseases…degradation of organic materiel…synaptic anvil problems broken connections, disrupted cell assembly areas, but their is lot that can be done via compassionate communication…the ignorant might see their affects as mhp’s, but they are not….neither do i condone talking therapies such as CBT NLP et al…
ECT is appauling and barbaric and does no good and much harm…..speak to this insane man about it if you dare…
http://www.truthtrustconsent.com/public_html/law/ect
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So Donkey what conclusions can we draw from your lack of knowledge and time spent on the internet?
1. You are unemployed
2, You continually fabricate claims that have no basis in reality
3, You think that you can browbeat people into believing that you have a knowledge in every possible area.
4, You go off an a tangent or just repeatedly ask people to answer questions that have been answered
5, You live in a fantasy world that your answers are always correct and try to use links to snake oil salesmen.
6, The last link you posted was to a man who has been working in a forensic area where ECT can not legally be used, in the UK, and as he said the efficacy tends to be for 4 weeks, which is why in the early 1980’s it was a frequent treatment every 4 weeks, and in between the patient needed no medications at all, suicides came about when Psychiatrists thought that they needed to use neuroleptic medications as an adjunct to the ECT. at the end of 1999 start of the 2000’s ECT fell out of general use, although regular dosage ended with the closure of the old bins, and “care” in the community for long term psychiatric conditions, when the use of chemical coshes took over. If like me you had a knowledge of mental health care you would know that without having to trawl the internet to try to show you have expertise.
7, you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you aren’t fooling me whatsoever.
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barry ukip
i’ll post this link to a man who spent many years working in the prison system curing psychopaths et al then…
http://www.truthtrustconsent.com/public_html/psychiatry/the-cause-and-cure-of-psychosis
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There is no reference in that piece to psychopathology which is as anyone with any knowledge of the subject is that by definition incurable. I would not have liked to work with someone who expounded ideas that a cure for incurable conditions is available or who completely ignored the psychochemical alterations known to occurr in psychotic condition, neuroses may be amenable to his approach but not he serious chronic conditions. Just who is the man you posted that link to, as no one in the history of the world has cured a psychopath, in the prison service or outside of it.
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barry ukip
the clue is in the title….to the link above…that’s it now take it or leave it….
http://www.truthtrustconsent.com/public_html/psychiatry/the-cause-and-cure-of- here it says……psychosis…..not NEUROSES….although the method is the same in any case…..
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Well you found one person making that claim, but of course as an unemployed person with no training in the area you fail to know the true facts. The Doctor writing this piece worked in the prison sector where the treatment of mental illness is far more restricted than in mental health care facilities, not by choice but by law.
The outcome of this is that the severely mentally ill are transferred to specialist units, where they can legally receive the necessary treatment, and only the very mildly affected are likely to remain in prisons, although they are more often than not discharged to medical care on release.n To extrapolate the 100% cure of incurable conditions from this one piece of writing is a huge jump of faith even for you to entertain.
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barry ukip
do your research….read up on his work and the others i have mentioned and a completely different picture emerges…his parkhurst prison wing housed psychopaths too dangerous for broadmoor, where he treated and provably cured psychopaths, see his videos on the same web site…he is also on twitter saying the same things, quakers do not lie, they may make mistakes, but this is provably no mistake….and you have also misquoted or failed to read his work regarding ECT, ECT “cures” by damaging the brain, as do meds, (+ plus examples of the damage ECT causes), they don’t cure, but destroy brain tissue, and numb the mind see “unsafe at any dose” …see work of robert whitaker and his videos…see also nick davies on bob johnson…. http://www.nickdavies.net/1994/03/01/the-mad-world-of-parkhurst-prison/ read it…he is far from being a snake oil salesman, a money grabbing charlatan, as is proved by this article…
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Donkey Parkhurst prison does not house anyone “to dangerous for Broadmoor”, that is complete and utter nonsense, Broadmoor, along with Ashworth and Carstairs house the most dangerous mentally ill and psychopathic people in the country, along with Rampton which houses the most dangerous people with Learning difficulties as well .
If you bothered to actually research the subject you would find that part of the diagnosis of psychopathology is that it is by definite untreatable. The Prison service regulations regarding the treatment of those with mental health or psychopathic conditions are far stricter than those in a Hospital, try reading the legislation.
So you seem to not understand a subject matter you have claimed to be experienced in, 100% cure rates are an impossibility in any form of medicine let alone mental health. There is no evidence that ECT damages the brain, there is evidence that all medications have unwanted side effects, there is no evidence that talking therapies work with anything other than neurosis although many snake oil salesmen make the claim and make their fortunes out of peddling that nonsense.
There are some conditions like post partum conditions that resolve themselves when the womens body naturally readjusts it’s hormone levels, and some that may go into remission but they are by no means “cured” by any external intervention where only the symptoms can be treated, not the condition itself.
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barry ukip
you are simply refusing to read or accept the evidence that i have posted, which is entirely at your loss, fortunately others will read his work, as grueling as it is to read….i detest CBT, NLP, EDMR, (talking therapies, “oh, it’s not that bad, forget it, it is all in the past,” crap) PSYCHOPHARMS, ECT, et al they all make things worse…i do not advocate behaviorism at all it simply makes things worse…yes there are episodic conditions with spontaneous remission of symptoms…schizophrenia is one of them…but “triggers” can often reawaken those SYMPTOMS…
you have failed to read the places he has worked at …or his qualifications, he was formally head of therapy, at ASHWORTH maximum security hospital in liverpool, he was invited to take that post by ASHWORTH themselves, because of his proven success….
“In 1998 he was invited to become Head of Therapy in the Personality Disorder Unit at Ashworth Special Hospital, Maghull, Liverpool. The post of Head of Therapy there was especially created for him, to accommodate his experience and expertise”.
http://www.truthtrustconsent.com/public_html/about-me
“Dr Bob Johnson has developed a high profile as an expert in the management and treatment of Personality Disorders through his work from 1991 to 1996 as consultant psychiatrist in the Special Unit in Parkhurst Prison for exceptionally dangerous and disturbed Personality Disordered prisoners, who were generally considered too VIOLENT for BROADMOOR. While there he devised techniques to motivate and assist violent, severe Personality Disorders – reducing the level of violence there (including the number of alarm bells rung) by over 90%.” …..
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p s barry ukip
whilst at parkhurst, he also reduced the formally massive psycho harm drugs bill, to practically nothing, and would not give these prisoners drugs without the prisoners expressed consent……they simply no longer had a need for medication to control their violence, because their violence was cured, as were they…
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Not by choice, that was an order from the Home Office, and every prison hospital had to stop medicating without consent. It lead to more applications of the restrictive clothing and places of safety orders, which hadn’t been used in mental health for decades.
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barry ukip
well the circumstances you describe are not true in this case, and if violence is not being cured, then without pharm chemical coshes, other barbaric techniques are being used…you have been already been proven to be plain wrong by my posts above…ashworth…too violent for broadmoor et al….
from http://www.nickdavies.net/1994/03/01/the-mad-world-of-parkhurst-prison/ in the circumstances he was in parkhurst prison it was not seen as a choice…..
“But he was in charge of medicine and he insisted that he would not give prisoners drugs without their consent. Some of the officers said he had to, it was the only way they could keep control. There were some nasty clashes and one officer resigned from the wing. A few of the staff supported a confidential memo to the Governor, complaining about his attitude and urging his removal. The Governor backed him. Then Johnson turned up for work one morning to find he was locked out of the wing by officers who said that prisoners might attack him over remarks he had made to a newspaper. It took him four hours of politicking before he could get to work.”
unless you are saying the prison governor and the prison officers were criminals…
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Parkhurst Prison hospital has to work to exactly the same regulations as every other prison hospital, that is why the dangerous mentally ill criminals are not treated there at all. You clearly have no idea of the forensic side of mental illness or for that matter any form of illness at all, so stop wasting your time writing out this junk Donkey. As I said in a prison you can not make prisoners have medication, it isn’t his choice, in hospitals and special hospitals you can that is why the most dangerous ones go to special hospitals. You are pretending you know what you are on about I do know what the truth is though.
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barry ukip
to your post…Parkhurst Prison hospital has to work to exactly the same regulations as every other prison hospital……he treated those too violent for broadmoor, ie those who had to be kept in category A maximum security prisons such as parkhurst and could not be treated anywhere else, in fact parkhurst is a specialist psychiatric treatment prison that draws prisoners from all over the uk, for that very reason…or are you now saying dr bob johnson never worked there or was not head of therapy at ashworth…C wing, WHERE HE WORKED, was a specialist treatment wing, for very dangerous cat A prisoners…
“Category A Those whose escape would be highly dangerous to the public or national security. Offences that may result in consideration for Category A or Restricted Status include: Attempted murder, Manslaughter, Wounding with intent, Rape, Indecent assault, Robbery or conspiracy to rob (with firearms), Firearms offences, Importing or supplying Class A controlled drugs, Possessing or supplying explosives, Offences connected with terrorism and Offences under the Official Secrets Act”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_security_categories_in_the_United_Kingdom and from the above wikipedia link….
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He did not treat prisoners to dangerous for Broadmoor, he would have treated patients not dangerous enough to need Broadmoor, Parkhurst is a high security prison not a special Hospital, which Broadmoor Carstairs and Rampton and Both Ashworth sites are, hence it is subject to the exact same regulations as other Prisons. Your rather infantile notion that all Prisoners at Cat A prisons are Dangerous is laughable, the average car thief is far more of a danger to the public than any murderer in reality, because murders are usually a one off that came about because of a specific situation. In fact there are people with those convictions in cat C and D (open) prisons, wheat the untreatable uncurable highly Dangerous prisoners with mental Health Problems are in the Special Hospitals. Are you aware that remand centres security, where there are innocent people who are not mentally ill are above cat B status and only just below cat A standard of security? You see the difference I know what I am talking about I have worked in these places, unlike you who has read one item by one person.
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barry ukip
his videos of his successful treatments, are on his web site, on his twitter page/profile, and the successful treatments by non-professionals in prisons, of extremely violent people/prisoners/psychopaths, 100% cured, which is the core issue…deny this if you want, and obviously you do…but the truth is plain for all to see….here are the views of another psychiatrist on the detrimental affects of chemical treatments for various mhp’s on the brain and the “chemical imbalance” myth…ECT is barbaric, destroys brain tissue, disrupts cell assembly areas, (hebb 1949), is therefore dangerous, and highly damaging to recovery…
http://joannamoncrieff.com/UNE/ …..see there is more than one, there are many many more, in fact psychiatry on the whole is at last beginning to take note of their work…she often works with dr bob johnson, see their joint vid, where they can actually be seen working together, in the flesh….i also know of prison governors who note their successful work…i expect you know all about the work of prison governors as well, very likely better than they do themselves…i post to get info out there…
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Videos of his successful treatment on the website, from inside a top security prison, are you insane?, there is no cure for psycopathology period. You take one persons inane claims and think you can extrapolate that to 100% cure. You will find that ECT hasn’t been shown to destroy brain Tissue that was leucotomies, there is a huge difference between them, using a 1949 publication in 2014 is about as sensible as claiming the earth is flat. You post BS there is no 100% cure end of story and anyone who claims otherwise is like those people who say they are nigerian and need your bank account number to put money into it.
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barry ukip
wow, i said ECT disrupts cell assembly areas, (hebb 1949) i never mentioned lobotomies…his work does not consider damage caused by ECT nor labotomies, but comes up with the cell assembly theory..there are many other descriptions when referring to the human brain brocas, LAD…if you are the standard by which ukip’s selects it’s agents, god help us all….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebbian_theory
anyone who knows their stuff would clearly know this man, it is standard textbook teaching materiel…all you continue to do is diagnose and browbeat people who don’t agree with your views…
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1949 is the best you can come up with? Yes we discussed his work back in the early 80’s his theories had been debunked. which is why over 30 years later it was still used.
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barry ukip
then why did you not mention this in your post above, instead of claiming he did work on the damage caused by ECT….and, lecturers were still teaching hebb in the late 80’s…but that is you just trying as usual to change the subject , and distract ECT meds are barbaric and psychopaths are 100% curable…as shown by dr bob johnsons work in parkhurst prison etc…..
Dr Bob Johnson
Consultant Psychiatrist, P O Box 49, Ventnor, Isle of Wight, PO38 9AA UK
http://www.TruthTrustConsent.com GMC speciality register for psychiatry reg. num. 0400150 formerly Head of Therapy, Ashworth Maximum Security Hospital, Liverpool
Consultant Psychiatrist, Special Unit, C-Wing, Parkhurst Prison, Isle of Wight.
MRCPsych (Member of Royal College of Psychiatrists),
MRCGP (Member of Royal College of General Practitioners).
Diploma in Psychotherapy Neurology & Psychiatry (Psychiatric Inst New York),
MA (Psychol), PhD(med computing), MBCS, DPM, MRCS. i mean what would this man know, eh! not as much as barry ukip it seems…
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Why would I mention a debunked theory?
Lecturers including myself mentioned it simply as a reference to wrong thinking, just as I could reference you as someone with a belief that can not be altered by logic, or evidence, which would indicate a mental illness because of your ridiculous claim the every medical condition has been proven to be 100% curable, although you clearly do not believe it you didn’t have any real idea and have been busy googling and trawling wiki to find something to back up your claims.
I say again there is absolutely no evidence that every medical condition is 100% curable and there is evidence that there is no cure for pshchopathology whatsoever, despite what one person may claim. You have to remember Doctors dealing with these people always have people with them, they aren’t stupid enough to be on their own, but leave others in danger with their incorrect ideas.
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barry ukip
i never claimed every medical condition is 100% curable…the evidence has been presented….
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Yes you did claim that which is why I mentioned several conditions that are incurable inclusive of pschopathology in the first place, you have presented nothing other than you lack any medical knowledge at all.
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barry ukip
there is much evidence i have presented….i will also add there is also much clinical evidence that ETC causes brain damage which disrupts cell assembly areas ie “disconectivity” and does the same equivalent brain damage as a lobotomy…
New Study Confirms Electroshock (ECT) Causes Brain Damage
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/electroshock-treatment_b_1373619.html
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I see that you have moved on from your stupid reference to a paper published in 1949, perhaps you discovered the stupidity of treating a completely different form of administrative procedure as being relevant today. Now you post a link that shows that this one person is saying something that the vast majority are not. The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled so the well it works but we are not sure why argument has been discarded. To claim that it causes brain damage is frankly not true, unless a brain scan is done prior to the treatment how can you prove the damage was caused by the treatment and not there already, it could actually have an effect on the causation of the condition.
So now we have sorted out that you know nothing about ECT, and you know nothing about psychopathology, and you are totally wrong that every single medical condition is 100% curable, what is left for you to try to fly in the face of established medical knowledge.?
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barry ukip
well, the information is posted for all to see, and make their own minds up, that’s all i needed to achieve….people will make up their own minds what they believe or is best for them…
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Indeed they will Donkey, a few people with no knowledge of health care will continue to believe there is a tablet to cure everything, and that health care has not moved on at all since 1949, but then thankfully they will be a very small minority.
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barry ukip
you said…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…” on this blog post…
see also http://joannamoncrieff.com/UNE/ on the “myth of the chemical cure” and the true reasons why ECT was abandoned in favour of the chemical cosh….yes people will judge who is correct or not….both ECT and the chemical cosh do tremendous harm and absolutely no good….see also robert whitaker “mad in america” and his vid…”anatomy of an epidemic….”
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Well at least you are beginning to learn now that your highly incorrect claims that it is proven that every medical condition is 100% curable is a Myth which is where I started my argument against your claim, so perhaps you can now tell us which medical condition is 100% curable as we have finally got an admission from you that this claim is a pure fabrication on your part.
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barry ukip
“Well at least you are beginning to learn now that your highly incorrect claims that it is proven that every medical condition is 100% curable is a Myth which is where I started my argument against your claim, so perhaps you can now tell us which medical condition is 100% curable as we have finally got an admission from you that this claim is a pure fabrication on your part.”
you are not in truth, and i have made no such claim….
but which of these statements that you made on this blog post is true…..
you said…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
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That is because you lie and make so many stupid claims that you forget what you wrote, and just what part of the part that was history and the part that is now do you not understand, what are you going to do next post a 16th century scientific paper that witchcraft exists, or one that says the earth is flat, or one that is more modern that heavier than air machines can’t fly, a bit like your attempt to prove your argument with a 65 year old publication.
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barry clap ’em in irons ukip…
you condone ECT, violent restraint, straight jackets, the chemical cosh, non healing “therapies”, and you have the damn nerve to accuse me of being backward facing..i’m surprised you don’t suggest the ducking stool next, leeches, trial by combat, blood letting, perhaps the rack, or the cat o’ 9 tails…
hebb is a well respected structures of brain neuroscience pioneer….so what if he published a paper in 1949, (65 years ago), that does not make his work nor that paper invalid…and as i have already pointed out, above…”wow, i said ECT disrupts cell assembly areas, (hebb 1949) i never mentioned lobotomies…his work does not consider damage caused by ECT nor labotomies, but comes up with the cell assembly theory..there are many other descriptions when referring to the human brain brocas area, LAD…”
but which of these statements that you made on this blog post is true…..
you said…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
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Oh dear “clap em in irons” is that the best you can manage now with your pitiful fabrications U turns and general nonsense It is evident you are devoid of experience in an area you are trying to claim expertise, you state that research done into a medical technique that hadn’t been employed for decades by the 1980’s and certainly would be employed today, because it has been adapted since then is valid today, it is not valid at all because it refers to a long abounded methodology. Of course if you had any idea instead of googling you would appreciate this as factual. In his day no understanding of how the treatment worked was available, it had been based on the acquired wisdom that people with severe mental conditions who had epilepsy seemed to improve after a fit, so different methods of inducing fits were used, the most humane and safe being ‘ect, The use of insulin was found to be extremely dangerous as many patient died. Now with the improved technology which wasn’t available 30 years ago there is far more knowledge and understanding of how ECT works.
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barry ukip
i never said hebbs work had studied the affects of ECT, as you imply i have…i have made no U turns, my opinion and truth is as it has always been…which one of the following statements that you made on this blog post is true A or B…
you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
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Oh dear yet another U turn, you quoted Hebbs in a triumphal manner to prove your claim, now that I have shown that a 65 year old piece of research has been superseded by the progress in technology you claim you din;t say that, be careful your U turns are getting so sharp you could wind up disappearing up the very backside you talk out of. Ask yourself a simple question when did commuters first start being used as part of the diagnostic process with items such as CAT scans MRI scans etc. so that the actual effect on the brain could be closely monitored, you don’t even need to look it up because computers that didn’t fill an aircraft hanger to run only started to become available in the mid 80’s, and it took a while to integrate them into health care after that. So lets see what ancient piece of research you can try to prove that wrong, and yes I have heard of an abacus.
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barry ukip
“Oh dear yet another U turn, you quoted Hebbs in a triumphal manner to prove your claim, now that I have shown that a 65 year old piece of research has been superseded by the progress in technology you claim you din;t say that,”
what are you claiming i said,that he did not say?
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barry ukip
what are you now claiming i said about hebbs work? that i claimed hebb proved ECT did brain damage, i never said that AT ALL….
that was NOT reason i mentioned hebb..reread my original post answering a question you posed ie your very own statement A which is posted below.. …..which one of the following statements that you made on this blog post is true A or B…
you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
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I am stating that you are now claiming you did not say that his research was relevant , when in fact you were the one who first referred to him, just as you made incredulous claims that there were posts on U tube from inside a high security prison, and that all medical conditions are 100% curable, you make these things up get irrelevant links from googling hen make out you are something of an expert, the truth is rather something else though, you may as well stop trying because you will only wind up claiming that Rabbits can fly through the eye of a needle with one leg tied behind their back blindfolded next.
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I wish you would make your mind up Donkey, first you say one thing then claim you didn’t then claim that 65 year old research is relevant despite being superseded why on earth do you continue to consider anyone else lives in your fantasy world.
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barry ukip
it is not my problem if you can’t read, and jump to illogical conclusions…i said ECT very likely disrupted cell assembly areas in the brain and posted a link to hebb to show that cell assembly areas were in fact very likely, my assertion of disrupted cell assembly areas et al…is also backed up by clinical studies carried out on the brain damage known to be caused by ECT.. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/electroshock-treatment_b_1373619.html …and many others that i have also linked to…which led me to ask and state…”what are you now claiming i said about hebbs work? that i claimed hebb proved ECT did brain damage, i never said that AT ALL….
that was NOT reason i mentioned hebb..reread my original post answering a question you posed ie your very own statement A which is posted below..” repeat i have never claimed that hebb did or has done research on the damaging affects of ECT, it is you who has claimed that i did….
..which one of the following statements that you made on this blog post is true A or B…as only 1 of them can be true…
you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…” .
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p s barry ukip
i have never claimed all medical condition are 100% curable, nor did i claim that a youtube vid was filmed inside a high security prison (parkhusrt max security prison C wing special unit…you said i have/did….dr bob johnson did not fear the prison inmates at all…he feared for them, the suffering they had endured and were enduring, his mission is to end human suffering, caused by people being emotionally locked into their pasts….so he helps them to heal their past childhood suffering…see link
http://www.nickdavies.net/1994/03/01/the-mad-world-of-parkhurst-prison/ but i still want the above A and B answered, that you are trying to avoid answering…
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Another link that does not support what you posit, you have failed to answer any question asked of you and tried to say you haven’t made claims that you have now you post another link that doesn’t support your claim that 100% of medical conditions are curable, that psychopathology can be 100% cured that mental conditions can be cured without any medical procedures being undertaken, You make the claims but your attempts to find the evidence to back up what you are attempting to posit as an honest point fails on every level your understanding of anything medical is that of an unqualified person ith no education in the arena at all, your attempt to use a 65 year old essay as solid proof casts doubt on your educational attainments, I have answered and explained every point you have twisted turned made false claims and refuse to accept when you are proven beyond reasonable doubt to be wrong.
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barry ukip
if i have said what you have claimed that i have you will easily be able to prove it…as what i have actually said is clearly posted on this blog post….but as i have not said what you claimed you say i have, you cannot show that i have, or you would have done so already…A OR B which one very simple question to answer A OR B….
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ps barry ukip
i have said that psychopaths are 100% curable, and that mental health problems can be 100% cured both psychosis and neurosis…without drugs or ECT…but by simply getting to the root of the persons emotional blocks and unpacking it….i have posted much evidence to back up my claim….
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I stated the reason why it had been severely restricted then why it had had been investigated which was entirely down to the progress in the available technology, so the two statements having been referred to different time frames are both correct, in the early 80’s we did not have the computing power on which the technology is based, a computer with less computing power than a Sinclair z80 took up a building the size of a hangar. It was only after the ability to scan the brain intimately that the actual impact on the brain could be codified to an accurate level something your 65 year old research had no possibility of returning.
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Make your mind up you claim you are now claiming something you previously claimed you didn’t say, Psychopaths are in fact 100% incurable part of the definition of a psychopath is that the condition is incurable so you are still 100% wrong in your infantile assertion. Psychoses can not be cured, they can only be treated Neurosis, are self limiting there is no evidence that talking therapy alone cures them as even with medical intervention they are known to reoccur frequently, you have posted bits and pieces that you have googled you have no insight or understanding of the subject matter, and have proven that you are incapable of allowing yourself to take the opportunity to widen your knowledge base.
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barry ukip
my position remains unchanged, and is the same as it has always been, for many years now, and i have never said any different…psychopaths are 100% curable…drugs and ECT do much harm and no good…all medical conditions are NOT curable and i have never said they were, ever…you said i have/did….
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barry ukip
your above post is incompatible with what you stated in A or B..A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…” which one is true A OR B?
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barry ukip
i never said that 65 yr old hebb’s research considered the damaging affects of ECT, AT ALL, you said i had/did…so now you claim both statements as true…in that case for the moment lets consider….
you claim to know how ECT works as according to you the mystery has now been unravelled…tell me how does ECT work…please post links to the scientific studies, that show how it works, does no harm, and much good….if not tell me how ECT works and post the scientific studies showing how ECT does work…
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ps barry ukip
nor did i claim hebbs (1949) work, considered how ECT worked, you said i had/did…i now look forward to your reports clearing up the “how ECT works mystery, et al”……
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You seem to think that repeating your false claims somehow adds credence to them, when in fact all you are doing is presenting a factual image of your ignorance of the subject matter, psychopaths are 100% incurable that is a fact which is represented by the diagnostic procedure carried out by each and every Psychiatrist with the knowledge base to diagnose the condition, only the ignorant would believe otherwise. By definition psychopathology is incurable. You claims as to the damage caused by ECT are 65 years old and have no relevance today, in fact they were shown not to be proven even then. You claimed all medical conditions are 100% curable, but now have U turned yet again face it you don’t have the knowledge to debate this matter because you are ignorant of medical matters in their entirety.
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barry ukip
sticking to your claims over ECT for the moment…
i never said that 65 yr old hebb’s research studied the affects of ECT, nor how it works AT ALL, you said i had/did…you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
and now as you claim both statements as true…barry ukip said, “I stated the reason why it had been severely restricted then why it had had been investigated which was entirely down to the progress in the available technology, so the two statements having been referred to different time frames are both correct, ….”
in that case for the moment lets consider….
you now claim to know how ECT works, as according to you the mystery has now been unravelled, and as now you clearly confirm/state that you know how ECT works…tell me how does ECT work…please post links to the scientific studies, that show how it works, does no harm, and much good….if not tell me how ECT works and post the scientific studies showing how ECT does work…
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If you bothered to read what I actually am saying instead of trying to find information to make your own inadequate leaning appear to have any acceptable credentials you might actually pose a reasonable question. Right in History it was discovered that ECT could have an effective reaction on seriously depressed people. Do you also think that wasn’t the case although it lead to a long term usage?
No one knew exactly how it worked, just that it did, and by investigating the brains of pigs at abattoirs where the pigs were stunned using a similar technique, although at a higher voltage and ampage, no physical harm was detected to the brain tissues.
As technology took a leap forewords in the mid 80’s, not the same as early 80’s it became easier to investigate the human brain without intrusive surgery, and the knowledge of how ECT acts on the brain has become clearer. Which part of that time line does not fit in with what I have stated. Now you have made incredulous claims of 100% cures but no one with any iota of knowledge of medicine would claim that particular outcome especially in an area where the incurability of the condition is a marker for the initial diagnosis.
I think you will find that at one time I can honestly say they thought heavier than air machines could not fly, that was what was considered to be correct at the time,but as we all know, just over 100 years ago they managed to prove that position was wrong, technology moves on and in some cases in a short space of time, remember when Hebb, after who one of the schizophrenias was named, was writing this, there was no organ transplantation or other medical procedures now available, so your wish to remain in the past and not progress along with the rest of the world is remarkably deluded.
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barry ukip
ECT actually works by destroying the mind, as do so called mental health drugs, but that aside….
you clearly claimed that that mystery of how ECT works has now been unravelled, answer my question as posted above, your usual bluster, is NOT an answer….”barry ukip
sticking to your claims over ECT for the moment…
i never said that 65 yr old hebb’s research studied….i await you response to those questions in mesmerized anticipation….
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What is the mind? does it exist? If you mean that ECT and neuropletic drugs interfere with the neural pathways and this leads to a kick starting of rational cognition which has got caught up in a circular destructive cycle you would be correct but you can not destroy a mind, your usual I am right and can propose out of date disproved theory to support my claim nonsense remains nonsense no matter how you try to twist and turn, and fabricate nonsense declaiming your own claims and attempting to say I claimed things I didn’t.
Some how I don’t think that waiting in a hypnotic state, I can only assume you must have taken a hypnotic drug to be in that position, as I doubt you have the cognitive capacity to be hypnotised in any other manner, will aid your recognition of facts over fiction.
The simple fact remains your inane posture of 100% cures is wholly wrong your knowledge of the methodologies of the procedure of applying the treatment commonly know as electro convulsive therapy are outmoded, and have been for decades, but you still refer to 65 year old research as if it has relevance and state you have provided irrefutable evidence, which is far from the truth.
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barry ukip
100% cures are available for psychosis and neurosis i have posted many links on a/the variety of topics raised…now where’s your evidence for your claims, i have outlined below, apart from your browbeating bluster claiming/saying it is true because you say it is…??
sticking to your claims over ECT for the moment…
i never said that 65 yr old hebb’s research studied the affects of ECT, nor how it works AT ALL, you said i had/did…you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
and now as you claim both statements as true…barry ukip said, “I stated the reason why it had been severely restricted then why it had had been investigated which was entirely down to the progress in the available technology, so the two statements having been referred to different time frames are both correct, ….”
in that case for the moment lets consider….
you now claim to know how ECT works, as according to you the mystery has now been unravelled, and as now you clearly confirm/state that you know how ECT works…tell me how does ECT work…please post links to the scientific studies, that show how it works, does no harm, and much good….if not tell me how ECT works and post the scientific studies showing how ECT does work…
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So now you have U turned again and after denying that you claimed 1005 cures you now say there are 100% cures, There is no 100% cure whatsoever, it is a myth and only the desperate cling to that myth. You continued cognitive dissonance regarding the 100% being the facts or you having never said they are the facts must be getting difficult for you to deal with.
Why do you keep referring to an outdated and irrelevant piece of research that is 65 years old, a more intellectual person would have realised the basis for his argument was illogical, as the methodology on which that that research was enacted has long since been abandoned.
I said ECT was severely restricted for a period of time as it was not understood how it worked, it was accepted it did work, but not the reason why.
I also said that with modern technology the way it works has now been unravelled and the understanding is far greater.
Tell me how do these positions contradict themselves, they are at a different point in the time line and technology hopefully progress’ not regress’ How is it that you can not differentiate two statements being about separate time frames, or is it that you are just a troll who pretends to be lacking in the intellectual ability to know the difference between the 1980’s and the 2010’s.
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barry ukip
i don’t have to compare your statements as i have clearly bypassed the need to…
100% cures are available for psychosis and neurosis i have posted many links on a/the variety of topics raised…now where’s your evidence for your claims, i have outlined below, apart from your browbeating bluster claiming/saying it is true because you say it is…??
sticking to your claims over ECT for the moment…
i never said that 65 yr old hebb’s research studied the affects of ECT, nor how it works AT ALL, you said i had/did…you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it isn’t possible to say how it works,”….
and now you say B “The reason that ECT was reduced for a period, or not used was that no one knew exactly how it worked, but now thanks to improved technology that mystery has been unravelled…”
and now as you claim both statements as true…barry ukip said, “I stated the reason why it had been severely restricted then why it had had been investigated which was entirely down to the progress in the available technology, so the two statements having been referred to different time frames are both correct, ….”
in that case for the moment lets consider….
you now claim to know how ECT works, as according to you the mystery has now been unravelled, and as now you clearly confirm/state that you know how ECT works…tell me how does ECT work…please post links to the scientific studies, that show how it works, does no harm, and much good….if not tell me how ECT works and post the scientific studies showing how ECT does work…
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You mean you dare not compare your statements because you change like the wind you have posted a link to a person who has not sued any such thing as all mental health conditions are 100% curable, your post is to someone who thinks that you don’t need medical intervention which is crazy by anyones standards.
You used 65 year old research to back your claim that ECT damages everyone and showed no understanding of its value, or how it works.
Your claims are nonsense and there is no doubt you knew nothing on the subject matter when you started posting this utter rubbish and have not bothered to listen to anything being said to you, carry on trying to sell your snake oil ideas, all you will do is have people realise what a fool you really are.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/articles/new-research-improves-ect-outcomes
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/05/22/how-do-you-cure-mental-illness/
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barry ukip
i doubt after reading that reply above, your other replies to me and others, anyone will now care what you think…and those links do not describe the unraveled mystery of ECT that you have claimed that has happened…no scientific studies just more dictatorial opinion from barry ukip…ECT and anti-psychotic drugs destroy brain tissue, and this proven…..
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Well lets be honest you have made such outlandish claims, and made fabrications claimed 65 year old research on a procedure that is not conducted in that manner anymore is relevant today, claimed all medical conditions are 100% curable, provided no evidence whatsoever to support your claim of these cures being possible with no medical input, anti psychotic drugs do not destroy brain tissue, any more than any other medication destroys brain tissue, only a person who has made the ridiculous statements you keep repeating will think you have actually said anything worth reading get it into your head you have provided no valid arguments for your destroying brain tissue nonsense, you have provided no information for your 100% curable nonsense , just more and more insults and inane claims. You looking in the mirror for dictatorial opinion and it is 100% wrong what you claim.
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barry ukip
if you live in glass house don’t throw stones…point to where i said all medical conditions are curable or to anything else you have falsely accused me of claiming or said….
no! anti-pychotic drugs nor ECT, does not equate to no healing interventions the 2 actively prevent healing and damage the brain…these so called treatments are purely political in motive, and inspired by cultural behaviorism …you are accusing me of exactly what you have been doing to me and others, this is plain for all to see, you bluster, lack truth, will not accept truth, constantly insult my integrity, mental health, distract, remanufacture what has been said to you to suit your argument, accuse any foreign “foe” that suit your cause and any who disagree with you ….i have presented much evidence to support my claims, from leading psychiatrists dr joanna moncrieff who’s work was the focus of a recent Disabled People Against Cuts lecture, on the damaging affects of anti-psychotics “the chemical cosh” “the myth of a chemical cure”, dr alice miller a globally renowned author, also dr bob johnson who is also an experienced GP, renowned for his, prison work, legal work, expertise and experience in curing psychosis and neurosis, the well known dr dorathy rowe. dr p breggin, medical journalist and writer robert whitaker, journalist nick davies and the accounts of cured psychopaths themselves…i did NOT present the work of hebb in the fictitious way you have claimed, which is why i keep mentioning hebb, and you brought up the 65yrs old thing, in an attempt to discredit me yet again…
you still have not answered my questions…i said, “you now claim to know how ECT works, as according to you the mystery has now been unravelled, and as now you clearly confirm/state that you know how ECT works…tell me how does ECT work…please post links to the scientific studies, that show how it works, does no harm, and much good….if not tell me how ECT works and post the scientific studies showing how ECT does work…” i pointed to my insights of how i believed ECT worked in a response to your following
statement/question, using the work of hebb(1949),… “you said A…”ECT has been severely restricted for a considerable time, solely because it ISN’T (my emphasis and bracketed inclusion…isn’t, is present tense! so your A-B statements are shown to be incompatible with each other ) possible to say how it works,”….then i found the work of dr p breggin which confirmed my thesis and the brain damage that is caused….btw ECT is used as a last resort, therefore after anti-psychotic drugs have done what they always do damage the brain and failed, i also mentioned episodic disorder and spontaneous remission of symptoms…you even posted a recent, “2 places at once” link, you actually provided further support for my thesis of how ECT worked, that further confirmed my thesis and confirmed the brain damaging affects of ECT, “disconnectivity” as if, this is not brain damage, as if, it is a good thing to damage the mind/brain and is not barbaric coz anesthetic is used whilst inflicting this further brain damage…ie the toxic crap of healing the past by destroying memories of it, and wiping out any other memories/functional abilities that happen to get in the way …
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“ps barry ukip
i have said that psychopaths are 100% curable, and that mental health problems can be 100% cured both psychosis and neurosis…without drugs or ECT…but by simply getting to the root of the persons emotional blocks and unpacking it….i have posted much evidence to back up my claim…” April 5th was the last time you made the claim
You still make false claims of ECT and medications damaging the brain.
Now you are saying that it is political, well if it is political to treat people for medical conditions you are correct what is wrong with wanting to alleviate damaging conditions?
All behaviour is culturally driven, or do you believe we should all be allowed to rape kill steal at will.
You constantly make statements then try to say you did not and blame others for having the temerity of repeating what you said because you have no argument to prove your stance.
You have made references that patients are to dangerous for Broadmoor one of the establishment that houses the most dangerous people in England and wales, along with Ashworth Special Hospital Carstairs doing he same job for Scotland, but that doesn’t fit your warped ideas.
I have answered every question you have asked, but you try to say that isn’t the answer and ask the same question again because it doesn’t suit your premeditated false beliefs.
You seem to be so wrapped up in the misguided ideations you present that you are not capable of accepting your stance on 65 year old research about an entirely different procedural technique, or your failure to accept that the interventions have no physical action on the brain or your frankly ludicrous claim that all conditions are curable and that the incurable pychopathology ic curable are frankly no more than childish ignorant rants.
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barry ukip
there is simply no further point in replying to your posts on this blog post any more…i am sure that the subjects that i have noted will come up again….so i’ll await that opportunity arising, as it surely will….
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Well it is good that you have realised that when debating a subject about which you have no knowledge against a person who does is never going to go your way especially when you forget what you you claimed and then claim you didn’t claim that claim in the first place.
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this post is about how the clock has been running backwards in mental health outcomes…and how outcomes are now provably much spectacularly worse than they used to be….by a pulitzer nominated journalist…robert whitaker…he explains how anti-psychotics damage the brain and how functional abilities plummet…
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So now it is a journalist that knows better than Doctors is it? How on earth do you expect anyone to believe anything you say you twist and turn claim you haven’t made statement s now you turn to a hack. Your claims are bogus get over it you have been found out for the ignorant fool you are, just because you have had treatment for your mental condition it doesn’t make you and expert.
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