(not satire – it’s the UK today!)
This letter from the Department for Work and Pensions was posted by Chris Nelson on Facebook (click to enlarge):
According to this letter, the DWP is clearly placing the ‘blame’ for having cancer on the patient herself.
Has the demonisation of welfare claimants in the UK got to the point where we’re blaming cancer patients for their own illnesses now?
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Related articles by Tom Pride:
Mother’s plea for son who lost benefits after missing signing on because of cancer operationp
The government has finally done something so outrageous even I can’t be bothered to satirise it
Throat cancer victim – “this is not the England they fought and died for!”
Let’s be clear – Tory and Lib Dem MPs have decided terminally ill patients should work or starve
Don’t turn your back. Because you’re going to be disabled too one day.
ATOS assessor found blind woman fit for work after “wiggling his fingers” in front of her eyes
ATOS call police on Labour councillor after he tries to accompany claimants to assessments
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Please feel free to comment.
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Pride's Purge 
Can’t wait for the Channel 4 documentary on ‘Cancer Scroungers’ and the resultant public fury against people suffering from incurable illnesses as a drain on the system.
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Pingback: Mother’s plea for son who lost benefits after missing signing on because of cancer op | Pride's Purge
Reblogged this on Ned Hamson Second Line View of the News and commented:
Cannot like anything like this – in UK becoming the UK of the flick Brazil of years ago.
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Reblogged this on nearlydead.
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It looks like a DWP cock up with a standard letter to me, because it says both that they will and will not pay ESA, and they will and will not credit NI contributions.
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death by tory party
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What did they think she did-try and make an illegal atomic bomb?
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Does this mean that those with smoking related illnesses, cancer,emphysema etc, obesity related illnesses, diabetes and resulting amputations etc will be slung off esa?
Where will it end…you didn’t come out of your mother soon enough the cerebral palsy is your own damn fault?
I’m really hoping this is some kind of wind up by someone because its too bloody scary otherwise!
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Seems to say, in typical DWP obfuscation, that she can’t have ESA from 19th Nov to 7th Dec due to causing her medical condition (OMFG) but from 7 th dec she will get £56 a week. So what do the DWP think she did to cause her cancer only until the 7th of Dec. did she opt for an op?? Now any medical input is voluntary???
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Reblogged this on seachranaidhe1.
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f f
read the letter will you it says not paid from 19/11/13 and paid from 7/12/13…
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It looks like a silly cock up by some idiot at the DWP. However, the time it takes to sort such things out can be a very serious problem for somebody who is struggling to manage.
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Exactly… only a couple of weeks in a long-term illness. It’s obviously a silly cock up. Somebody just forgot to delete the inappropriate parts.
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I can’t see anything in the DWP’s letter to connect it with cancer or indeed any specific ailment. We’re seeing it out of context therefore, and have no real idea save what we’re told it relates to. I see no point in making a complaint to my MP as the first thing they’ll say is, ‘How do you know this is genuine?’ and we don’t.
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Its a sanction – a punishment for not doing something, and for contributing to your condition, the very condition that stops you from working – which is clearly a DWP sin.
However I’m intrigued to know how you can contribute to cancer… but there is also a ruling that says refusing treatment is contributing to your condition, and then there is retarding your recovery – so if you feel like hell and refuse to drag your sorry arse to the GP, or have radiotherapy that day, then you are very naughtily refusing to get better – how very fraudulent of you!
And then you get sanctioned – which is 60% of the JSA part of ESA, so you end up with the ESA premium (av £30) – a total of around £70, or £56 dependant on age.
Anyhow, its all here; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/252065/dmg-vol9-ch53.pdf
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We do…
here; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/252065/dmg-vol9-ch53.pdf
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f f
i think they mean it, there have been reports of DM’s having to google illnesses for treatment and prognosis plus this link may be relevant as a possible extrapolation, to the wonderful miraculous world of the dwp, i know the post relates to WCA, but there is no indication at what stage of the esa process this person was/is at… http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/esasos.html
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f f
ps, my mistake i guess there is indication from dwp letter that she is at the start of the process…
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You have my sympathy for your girlfriend’s illness and for the upset which the letter must have caused. As an ex Civil Servant I just want to clarify one point you mention. In my opinion you aren’t wrong in saying that the Government are insensitive, I think they have already proved that. However the fault in this matter is rooted in two causes. Firstly a possible cock up by the Civil Servant who made the decision on the case and sent the letter – Civil Servants work for the Government but they aren’t “the Government” they are individual people who work for the “government of the day” whichever party won the election. And the other fault lies in the procedures which are in place, the admin/exec officers working on cases follow the procedures which are all computerised, this is why your girlfriend received a standard letter. However I must point out that it would be impossible for a caseworker to prepare an individual letter for each case they deal with, they have very strict targets which they have to meet. I just wanted to make that clarification because it is important to realise that Civil Servants are individual people and they are not “the Government”. Unfortunately they do make mistakes sometimes and I just hope that in my 28 years for the CS that I didn’t make a mistake like this which caused such upset. My very best wishes to you and your girlfriend.
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Unfu**ingbelievable!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewing's_sarcoma
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Reblogged this on glynismillward189.
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Reblogged this on Carole… and commented:
I keep thinking nothing can shock me with regards to theis Coalition Government and then the DWP go right ahead and blindside me…take a look at this
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What a load of bullshit.
This is a sanction applied to one person by another – a decision maker (who is a single person).
Its not a cock-up, or a mistake – its a deliberate decision.
The regulation they are quoting is here;
Click to access dmg-vol9-ch53.pdf
Disqualification for misconduct
53130 Claimants entitled to ESA are disqualified for receiving it for a period decided by the
DM up to a maximum of six weeks if they1
1. have LCW through their own misconduct (except in a case where LCW is due
to pregnancy or a sexually transmitted disease) or
2. fail without good cause to attend for or submit to medical or other treatment
(excluding vaccination, inoculation or major surgery) recommended by a
doctor with whom, or a hospital or similar institution with which, the claimant is
undergoing medical treatment, which would be likely to remove the limitation
on the claimant’s capability for work or
3. fail without good cause to refrain from behaviour calculated to retard recovery
or
4. are absent without good cause from their place of residence without leaving
word where they may be found2
.
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I became a forced specialist in medical bloodsports targeting humans–I am the subject of LUKE FOWLER’S 2007 film BOGMAN PALMJAGUAR widely shown around Britain and abroad–my website http://palmjaguar2.webplus.net goes with film and uses evidence to show how “system” can keep misleading files on me keeping me falsely labelled as “paranoid schizophrenic” in notorious unscientific “schizophrenia” label then set a person up for cruelty–unfortunately I then succumbed to cancer in my 60s with disastrous effects then started to become aware of a second medical bloodsport targeting cancer and other sick and disabled–the “system’s” corruptions made large numbers of sick with corrupt junk food industry, etc. then whips up a negativity for sick costs it itself created largely.
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Reblogged this on Vox Political and commented:
To answer the question: Yes – the DWP does indeed try to blame patients for their own illnesses. Either they aren’t real and the patient has made them up, or the patient has done something to make themselves ill – it’s all part of the push to blame the claimant for their condition and pretend they can do something about it, rather than pay them the benefit that is due to them. In the long term, the aim is to get us all buying insurance policies from the same company that is currently advising the DWP on its policy – policies that will be judged by the same criteria and will therefore, most likely, be utterly worthless.
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CAMERON YOU LYING BASTARD…you have done nothing to protect those who need it…instead you let that S.O.B SMITH out of his cage to cause as much damage and bring about as many deaths as possible…you hate us don’t you…BUT NOT AS MUCH AS WE HATE YOU AND THAT DIRT THAT DO YOUR BIDDING….we the people can overcome all this IF WE STICK TOGETHER….THE FIGHT GOES ON….regards…sandra.
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DWP is a TOXIC ORGANISATION and TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL
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Reblogged this on Still Oaks and commented:
I would not sully your excellent blog, by saying what I really think of the DWP. The polite version would be, heartless, morally corrupt and destined for hades.
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I work for DWP -the letter is a fake
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Why are these kinds of stories always by people whinging on facebook or wordpress, when it should be in the national media? What difference will it make when the Tories use the national media to spread their propaganda?
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Reblogged this on just another job seaker.
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Reblogged this on Same Difference.
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maybe they approached the media and they wernt interested.
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Ahem…
She could be said to be contributing to her medical condition if she smoked, drank above a number of units per week or opted out of chemotheropy to preserve her fertility. There are a number of things which would ligitimately cause a “negative contribution” to her medical condition; or at the very least, fail to make a positive contribution.
Also, if she failed to notify the DWP then that does go against their policies. This is stated within the letter.
In your example, if you feel like hell and refuse to drag your sorry arse to a GP or to hospital then yes, that’s a bad thing. If however, you feel like hell and phone the GP/Hospital to rebook your appointment because you cannot make it then that not a bad thing. If that is not possible then have someone else phone. If that is not possible then call 999 because something is seriously wrong.
I feel that this post was written in haste; erroneously. This matter should be handled as exactly what it is… a case by case basis. Getting angry and posting stuff online does nothing. Infact it’s worse than nothing. It’s like praying for it to get better; you think you’ve done something to make a difference, but you’ve actually done nothing at all. By phoning up the DWP and going through the due process, something could actually be done about this. Until that appeal process starts, he’s the pigeon on the chess board.
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What is it about the letter that’s wrong?
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modern day hitler, the conservatives!
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Yes, ‘Cancer Street’ shall make great spectacle of the selfish misery cancer patients have brought on themselves
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No doubt they’re having meetings to discuss the possibility.
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maybe because the MSM (mainstream media) are almost certainly controlled by the government and so are unlikely to be willing to publish anything that “the masters” did not approve of – for example the story in this post
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Dear Devils Advocate…
My post wasnt written with any sort of emotion (at least not what you attributed), so maybe that bit wasnt directed at me… and you are quite correct – the link gives a clear indication of how the DWP now wish to see ESA, and they see it as a sanctionable benefit.
The rather disgusting aspect is that there are now more sanctioning opportunities for people on ESA than JSA.
What I find distinctly un-nerving is the fact that someone in the DWP genuinely believes that people will risk their health, and reduce their life expectancies to claim a benefit…
The bottom line is that this paternalistic “Do as we say or be punished” attitude of the Govmnt has gone too far – you cannot blackmail people into medication and treatment by stating that their benefits will be withdrawn if they dont comply – what about those who chose not to trust the treatment on offer, or wish to have a break from treatment – as many do when being treated for cancer, when they simply cannot face another round of treatment?
And what about those, like myself, who have had systematic treatment pre-diagnosis, which has now been identified as potentially fatal post-diagnosis?
Sick and disabled people’s human right to decide and control their own treatment is being played against their right to benefits.
THAT is what needs challenging.
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It may be a fake (I dont think it is) but the fact is that the DWP can sanction people on ESA if the DWP “believe” you have contributed to your condition, or retarded its recovery.
So fake or not, its highlighted a very important Human Rights issue, where the right to refuse treatment conflicts with the right to receive financial support.
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The regulation under which they can do this is Reg 157 of the ESA Regs 2008. It appears to be in the original regs i.e. brought in under Labour and not a later Tory amendment.
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Omg. How evil. How can the poor woman have given herself bone cancer.
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I can sympathise with the situation. My man problem with this case is that posting it online is going to do nothing. We can agree and strut around posting comments and puffing out cheeks, but the truth is that no matter how large the army, keyboard warriors will never make a difference.
What was the point in him posting this? Did it appease his anger? Did he follow this pointless post by doing something actually constructive and useful for his beloved? He can make a difference and make the system better by contacting the DWP and making constructive strides towards a resolution. Shouting down the phone or writing in red capital letters does absolutely nothing and can actually harm her case.
It’s not surprising, but reading some of the knee-jerk comments on here and on Facebook, people aren’t stopping to think of the story before screaming blue murder towards the government and society. Pigeon chess is pigeon chess whether you are the player or the pigeon. And the pigeon just makes things worse.
Of course I’m on her side. I hope that she can resolve this matter. I hope she goes into remission and lives a wonderful, fulfilling, happy life for many decades to come. But, what I’m not going to do is bandwagon post a knee-jerk “OMFG HOW AWFUL!!eleven!!!111” post when it just goes to trivialise the whole case.
We haven’t been given all of the details here. If she was a chain smoking alcoholic who refused chemotheropy and hadn’t notified the DWP for months, would the comments be so vindicating against the decision? She could be, we have no idea. Her boyfriend certainly wouldn’t share that much info in a “FURIOUS” comment online. Too many people live for that three to five seconds of smugness just after they post a “Yeah… me too!” comment on a socio-political post.
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Can’t find words to describe my feelings on this. Disgust, Loathing, Appalled, dont even brush the surface!!! How can these abominations sleep at night when they do this sort of thing to people already suffering? !!!
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hossylass
i agree this really needs challenging….
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How can you have such a strong loathing for a situation you hardly know anything about? I don’t understand the knee-jerk mentality at play here. Save your real bile for situations you can actually make a difference about.
We haven’t been given all of the details here. If she was a chain smoking alcoholic who refused chemotheropy and hadn’t notified the DWP for months, would your comments be so vindicating against the decision? She could be, we have no idea. Her boyfriend certainly wouldn’t share that much info in a “FURIOUS” comment online.
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How do you sleep at night, Lee?
Oh yea you do just fine, being paid to cause misery rather than notice which ones are actually taking the P with claims…you can go home and live without being judged demeaned or soiled in order for you get the money you need to pay your bills. I hope you don’t lose your job, and have to see what it’s like from the other side.
I’ve had very similarly worded letters to this- yes we will give you money, no we won’t yes we will, oh no sorry you’re one point from being ill enough (when it was DLA and back under Liebore) I became to ill to keep appealing, after breaking my spine due to cowboy landlord not fixing a stairwell properly/legally. But a ‘you made this happen’ letter, nope, that’s a weaselese step too far even for the DWP.
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Yep as I said above Liebore started this off, like these regs you cite, that’s when I was suddenly ‘cured’ back in ’08. And I received a very similarly worded letter tbh to this poor woman, except I got the ‘not quite ill enough’ form-letter excuse (aka b******s.) Hallelujah praise Jebus I am healed
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It’s not months though is it? Clearly it’s one month that has been sanctioned for whatever reason. But yes we don’t know what happened. Thing is, should a form letter ever tell a cancer patient it’s their fault if their lifestyle did not cause the cancer (you said smoking etc- that does not cause Ewing’s sarcoma, it’s genetic mostly.) Yes you can miss appointments when you are very sick (like with cancer, for example!?) and yes I know of people who gave notice they could not go, rescheduled and still got sanctioned, like my good friend who is now in remission from breast cancer.) The problem is IMO is that it always, even when they award money, sounds like you only just deserve any and to think yourself lucky you can join the ranks the rest of the ‘scum’. (No I don’t think they’re scum, that’s just what the letters do with their tone, deliberate obfuscation and weaselese!) 😦
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Alison you will never know if you did cause anyone distress and harm by just scanning a form letter and putting it in the system because genuine claimants who have been screwed over are deliberately blocked from calling the person that signed the letter directly, they are passed from money to monkey till, eventually they give in (and in more recent cases, kill themselves.)
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However I agree, it is the civil servants that work there, no matter what Government is at the ‘top’. It is the civil servants’ hands that are up their backsides, being jobsworths and happy to follow rules that censure and stimgatise anyone who does not fit in the box- women who DON’T have children, graduates who have fallen on hard times, people who won’t smash up the JCP if their claim is refused, people who are too ill or poor to get to DWP appointments etc (ad nauseam and infinitum).
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I do understand what you mean. I’ve had to deal with DWP many times because of JSA claims. Never because of illness, but I understand the tone and the hoops and the process. But, when I’ve had these problems, I’ve never crowd-sourced my anger. With every case I’ve had of unexpected letters bearing bad news, I’ve gone in person, asked to speak to a senior case worker and sat down with them and asked them to go through every line of the letter and explain it to me. More than once, they’ve read it through once, looked at my case notes and looked shocked at the letter and helped me resolve it there and then.
There are ways to go about things. This article is not one of them.
To reach a decision such as this, she would have had to have had Limited Capability for Work, through her own misconduct; fail to attend or submit to medical treatment which could help her; smoke, drink or eat to excess with no plan for cessation; changed her living circumstances without notification or fail to notify them of her condition.
If it’s none of the above then a mistake has been made and it should be resolved as soon as possible. Mistakes happen.
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The condition is genetic, not caused by smoking, so how she contributed to her own condition, which results from chromosomal exchanges, I don’t know…
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How do you live at night, Sasha?
Oh yeah, you do just fine; spouting out wild assertions on the internet to people whom you have no idea about, rather than notice which articles actually help the cause and which ones hinder it. You can stay home and live without being judged, demeaned or soiled in order for you to get the smug feeling you need to go on berating people online. I hope you don’t lose your thunder and see what it’s like from the other side.
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Lucky I have the ear of “some people” then,isnt it? LOL.
I’m on it, and I shall get some others on it – us campaigners never sleep (we dont get the chance).
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You don’t see how smoking cessation could help a cancer sufferer? We don’t know anything about her apart from what her short fused boyfriend wrote in haste through a red haze. don’t be so quick to defend what is unknown.
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The MSM are controlled by the corporations, as is government. That’s how it works.
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Fu
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Show me proof that this letter applies to a cancer patient. Evidence please.. This article is about as unscientific and as emotional as the governments drug laws. There is no proof, and lots of emotive assumptions being made here.
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(The last request for evidence produced a pdf of the legislation that the letter was based on, not evidence that this letter was given to the person in question in the context claimed to have been written in. Can anyone actually prove it?)
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Dear Devil’s Advocate… again!
It wouldnt matter if she was a chain smoking alcoholic who refused chemotherapy – NO ONE should be forced to take treatment by the threat of benefit denial.
I wouldnt care how she became ill – because when you go down that road you start making judgements, and we are into the realms of “deserving” and “undeserving”.
“Failing to submit to medical treatment” is a personal choice, and one many people opt for as part of end of life care – they have pain relief, not medication to prolong life.
No Government should sanction a persons benefits because they chose, for whatever reason, to not pursue further treatment.
As for dictating how people chose to live, to eat, drink or smoke, then I should remind you that people play rugby, sky-dive and ski off piste, ride racehorses over huge fences at speed and take other less obvious risks with their health – such as living in damaging relationships and working in jobs that are destructive to mental and/or physical health.
I advise you to be less of a dick, and see this for what it is – an abuse of human rights.
You may be annoyed about the platform that this is being exposed on, but you can guarantee that this amount of exposure will cause questions to be asked of and to the DWP.
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The point is not that this person has been unfairly treated (because we dont know) but that the legislation is potentially abusive.
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My husband had bowel cancer, He returned to work just after 3 months after operation feeling very weak. He managed to work and to have a course of 8-month chemo at the same time. he worked providing for his home and for those who are quick to demand benefits. Never ever he thought about going on benefits and in fact, he would not be entitled to any benefits because he has been spending his life working not looking for government’s kindness.
Not related to any particular member here but people smoke, people drink and eat tons of sugar and then complain about not being able to work. Sorry but my family is not going to pay for such irresponsible behavior. Hopefully, there will be more stick laws enacted which will limit financial help only to those who do need it.
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d advo
it is very apparent that you do not have the necessary depth of knowledge and actual experience to form an understanding of the issues that have been raised on this post…this issue is not just about one human being, but the affects it has on many sick and disabled human beings….
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Smoking causes lung cancer. Lung cancer can lead to secondary cancers. Neither of these are at issue here ergo smoking is irrelevant. .
Even at its strictest the regulation is not intended to punish lifestyle choices that eventually result in ill health, Nor is it supposed to require saintly behaviour on behalf of claimants for the benefit of the DWP. Frankly most claimants would probably get caught up in it if that were the case. It’s meant to catch people who carry out deliberate acts that prolong their illness and/or people who refuse treatment that could make them better.
Ok, we don’t know all the facts here but it is difficult to imagine anything the person could do to make a genetic illness worse.And any treatment for cancer is hardly 100% successful so it would seem a bit much to assume that any treatment she is refusing would automatically make her better and punish her for not taking it.
But yes, that is speculation. However, I cannot imagine any scenario where any conduct of a cancer sufferer, however irrational and self-harming it may appear objectively to another, could justify the denial of basic income for sickness, it’s just wholly disproportionate in anybody’s language.
I also hope she is challenging it via the ‘proper channels’ but it is ABSOLUTELY worthwhile publicising such cases widely so that people know the laws that have been agreed in their name. It’s called campaigning and a lot of use at the arse-end of officialdom’s practices see it as being extremely important.
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hossylass
we have each others ears on this issue, having seen the implications of these changes and/or of a more rigorous applications of existing regulations, their amplification….the advent of MR and what “might help”….even if this, that or the other treatment is available/unavailable or we disagree with it or indeed our gp’s/nhs disagree with it…
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Your family do pay for that and a whole lot more. You’re deluding yourself if you think otherwise. In fact, if your family don’t pay for that kind of people then, pretty much by definition, they are that kind of people (non-tax payers). It’s not irresponsible to be on benefits. Would you prefer the American system? Do you think it’s a bad thing that no matter how crap your life gets, for whatever reason, you’ll always be entitled to free healthcare and some form of allowance to live on. That, to me, seems like a fairly decent reason to respect the welfare system. I, for one, am happy to pay tax while others are on benefits, no matter what they do with the money, because if I was I’ve been in that position, I’ve needed it therefor me and was very glad of it.
You’ve got cake in both hands and all round your mouth and you’re complaining because other people are allowed to have cake to. I find that attitudes such as the one you have portrayed here to be far more irresponsible than benefit fraud. They understand the system well enough to play it; you don’t understand it well enough to even write about it.
People will abuse anything. Everything. It’s the price we have to pay for having such an amazing system that actually supports the populus in their times of greatest need.
“o ye so wot bout tha leta abuv?”, I hear the keys being slammed.
What about it? What does it prove? It’s one part of one letter posted by someone about someone else’s case; as an early part of an on going process to try to weed out the very people you’re complaining about. Show us her oncology reports, the results of the medicals she’s taken, all the correspondence they’ve had so far and the criteria she has to follow because of the sticks you want so badly to be left set in place and then, maybe, I could make an educated guess at whether or not she has been wronged.
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Was it lack of fibre in his diet that gave him bowel cancer?
You are in a glass house with no clothes on.
The Government are not kind, and oddly your husband was not the only contributor to the economy -we all contribute.
Please take your passive aggressive, or what is left of it before it mutated into pure aggression, and shove off.
Bowel cancer my arse…
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I’m afraid I disagree with your premise.
Largely because it’s a straw man fallacy. You’re equivocating the issue. The example you give would be fine under the system…
“Fail without good cause to attend for or submit to medical or other treatment
(excluding vaccination, inoculation or major surgery) recommended by a
doctor with whom, or a hospital or similar institution with which, the claimant is
undergoing medical treatment, which would be likely to remove the limitation
on the claimant’s capability for work”
We do not know the details of the case. If that decision has been reached then she’s not a part of the straw man you’ve built.
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Andy,
The disqualification criteria includes the following:
—–
Guidance on misconduct may be relevant if the misconduct being considered would have resulted in dismissal from employment and disqualification for receiving JSA.
Conduct which is blameworthy, reprehensible, wrong or wilful should be distinguished from involuntary behaviour due to other factors.
Alcoholism is one example of behaviour which may be misconduct if a claimant has LCW as a result of excessive drinking on one occasion. But the mental and physical effects of alcoholism can be a condition requiring long spells of treatment, including psychiatric help.
If a claimant has LCW as a result of an accident which occurred while intoxicated but which could have happened if the claimant was sober, LCW would not be due to misconduct.
Drug addiction is similar to alcoholism in that the uncontrolled use of addictive drugs leads to a progressive deterioration in physical or mental condition which can be incapacitating.
—–
Nicotine is an addictive drug and therefore would disqualify her, if the rules are read as writ.
This case would turn out to be tragic if the only reason she was disqualified was because she failed a drugs test because her boyfriend smoked pot in the same house.
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(In answer to DA’s post below.)
In literal terms, I don’t, DA, I have chronic illnesses that Liebore ‘cured’ for me via ATOS in ’08 (including cancer which luckily I am in remission now) that collectively mean I have insomnia, sometimes I don’t sleep for days. Yet despite that I have have my own little tuition business helping special needs kids do well at school, and counsel both them and LBGT young people, as I have two degrees, and 20 years in ecuation and therapies; and help out at the homeless shelter down the road when I am well enough to get there, making food and offering counselling should they want it.
So, ‘morally’ I sleep very well thanks. It’s my body that’s broken, you see, not my mind or my compassion. I genuinely do NOT how ANYONE can work for JCP or ATOS and have a conscience. Never have.
What do YOU do to sleep at night?
PS If you’re going to be a smarta**e at least spell my name correctly, it’s not an alias, it’s my actual name.
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Sorry I mean DA’s post above. And ‘how do I live at night’ is nonsense.
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Things is, when you’re ill and trying to jump through all those hoops, the likelihood and failure and thus sanctions is far higher. Thus that is what ATOS and now IBS is targeting. Never tried to claim anything but a few quid DLA (and that was because at the time the NHS did not offer the treatment I needed for long enough and wished for financial help with that) back in the day so not sure of the JSA process. Then along came all the new regs in ’08 and boom I’m ‘cured’. I wish! But I’m sure it’s equally repellant. But my partner’s right in the middle of all that, he lost his job due to ‘downsizing’ and he went into the JCP just for advice and to look at their job sites etc. Cue so much grief, negligence, outright lies, form fudging and even ID theft to the tune of £800 by one of their staff (for which she was taken to court). I can’t even start in any more depth than this without getting stressed and upset (and my illnesses are made worse by such things so I’d rather not go there.) They made him fill in all manner of forms, acted like ***s to him because he said he wasn’t trying to claim, and then refused him even one penny (that he wasn’t actually trying to get) because they ‘lost’ his info six times..and that was the ‘best’ thing that happened these past 18 months. He’s applied for nearly 2000 jobs and now also suffers from stress related illness. The system in place for some time now does not aid the genuine claimant one bit.Or someone who goes into JCP says they’re not trying to get any money, but, rather, advice and help to get a job. Their brains explode when they hear that.
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Oops typeo-s in my original post…I’ve not slept for two days so I missed one or two there! And on that theme if only the DWP would ADMIT when they make mistakes, and rectify them, then a lot of this **** could be avoided.
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Sascha,
My deepest apologies for a hastily drawn reply last time and the misspelling of your name. New laptop, different keyboard; it takes some getting used to.
If you actually, genuinely do not know how anyone can work for JCP or ATOS and have a conscience then you haven’t thought hard enough about the question.
You have no idea who Lee is, or what his circumstances are. You jump to snap decisions because he has a job. If you see one of your special needs kids from a few years back going into JCP to start working, would you instantly disown all knowledge of them and consider them devoid of conscience? What about any of the LGBTTQ you wrongly acronised?
If you have so much experience in positions of authority in which empathy is such an essential skill, why would you have such a lack of empathy for people who work as gatekeepers in a demanding and tireless job?
I’ve known some terrible JCP case workers; but there are others with whom I would happily deal with for every aspect of my life. I’ve known JCP cse workers go far, far beyond the call of duty to help me, and others just like me. The people on the desks are notyour enemy and the one thing I learned while on JSA was the more you treat them like human beings, the better the whole experience is. I went from hating every single appointment to actually looking forward to being there. Purely because of the people that worked there.
Do not tar everyone with the same brush. Talk to humans like human and they will appear human. People are individual and if you cannot even contemplate empathising with the fascist bastards behind the iron line then maybe you should stop and ask yourself why; taking into consideration all the skills in empathy with individuals you have learned over the last 20 years working in education.
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Unless you are in WRAG under ESA then you cannot be sanctioned, as there is nothing to sanction. When sanctioned you lose 71.70 p.w & get to keep the wrag money £28 45. There’s a damn sight more to this letter than meets the eye.
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One thing you could do…
Gather up every scrap of paper you have with anything to do with his case on it. Then phone up the JCP and say “Hi, I’d like to enquire about making an appointment for a consultation visit. For the last 18 months my case has been very volatile and I’d like to be able to get everything in order. I’d like to be assigned an individual case worker. Either that, or a private consultation with a senior case worker to get things back on track and make sure that I know where I stand with my case.”
If they refuse, phone CAB with the same story. CAB is your best friend with this. Take along every scrap of evidence you have. Save every letter you recieve.
Most importantly, remember that it is the system that is flawed, not the gatekeepers. Treat the people that you speak to with respect. Empathise with them and help them empathise with you. As you know from working with special needs children, the more open and comfortable around someone you are, the more open and comfortable they are with you. Ask them for help; don’t tell them they need to help you. Help them to help you by taking the time to read everything and understand it. Use CAB as much as you can with anything that you don’t understand. CAB can even allocate you a case worker from their end.
There is help out there for you; daemonising the people will not help to fight against the system. Use every single resource you have to your advantage and be proactive.
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This has literally made me feel physically sick!!!!! THIS GOVERNMENT/DWP doesn’t know it’s arse from its elbow!!!! I’m currently in remission and whilst I’ve made some good friends through my “SUPPORT GROUP”.. I lost a truly wonderful friend who was diagnosed just after myself..
WHOEVER had the audacity to publish this nonsense should be made 2 stay with a cancer sufferer day in/day out whilst they have their treatment and also witness the life changes thereafter!!!! BLOOMING IDIOTS..A WASTE OF PAPER AND INK!!!!!
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Is the Devil’s Advocate the new counsellor here or what?
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Do you mean literally or figuratively? Was it actually what happened or an over exaggeration? From your anecdote, I can see how you’d sympathise with the cause, but there’s nothing but anecdote in this case at all. And, even if Katie did recieve the letter, it’s part of an on going process. The buck doesn’t stop here.
Whoever mail merged this letter pressed print once per thousand claiments or more; multiple times a day. That’s their job; it’s not nice but someone has to do it. They could hate having to print off letters to thousands of people a day; they could relish the misery of those who open them, who knows.
If you were genuinely sickened by just that one post then I should probably pre-warn you about “the internet”. It’s a big scary place out there, keep a bucket with you at all times because if this made you heave, anything will.
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Why is this such a shock , my.money was stopped totally last year after being told cancer, heart attack, double pneumonia ,shinglesand spondelosis and sciatica were not severe enough for them to give me not even 1 point on the charts, I cannot claim a penny for anything , because my partner of 27 years is on disability we thought I would qualify for carers allowence but noooo, when they changed his disability living allowence to eesa or whatever they dress it up as now they also stopped him on the high rate to middle so does not qualify and he cannot even claim for me any more ither so two of us and 3 cats plus 3 dogs have to live and pay in full all our own bills , food and car and prescriptions with no help at all, Iv tried 37 jobs now and havenot had one interview or in most cases even a reply.I was a care worker and tried housekeeping on hotels to cleaning public toilets but can’t get passed the medicals …and this letter is a shock to people and are outraged ..come and walk a mile in my shoes prime minister but no you couldn’t could you ? Nope your far too busy screwing the poorest people of your own country .your a damn cowardly spineless thief what your doing is criminaly insane and you need locking up for it.
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I started by merely wanting to point out the absurdity of some of the claims being made here. Godwin’s Law had already kicked in and pathetic, knee-jerk comment being made, backed up with really spurious, fatuous arguements. I want to make people actually sit back and think about what they are writing. The system cannot be fought be throwing tantrums. Especially online.
If anything of what I have said here, and will continue to say here has helped anyone even stop and think about what to write before posting then that’s all I could have ever hoped for and more.
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I’m so happy to know the cause of my Cancer now ..it would seem it was my own fault and they said there was no known cause ! Or indeed cure but there clearly is I should have written to my mother before she gave birth to me and ask she and my father reconsider having a chid at all…. see there’s the funding for cancer its not needed anymore all the cancer reasearchers don’t need to find a cure anymore there already is one that would free up a lot of charitable money ..give that to the social security to pay people…
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Julie,
Why the need for the Slippery Slope logical fallacy? The letter places no blame on her for her cancer. It does not state that her cancer is her own fault. Yes, it is poorly worded, but you’re turning it into something it is not. Logical fallacies get people nowhere and help no-one. Slippery Slope arguments especially are just purile.
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My son was sanctioned on ESA and he was in the support group.
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I hope she appeals this decision and gets these turds in a room and asks them just how they think she contributed to her cancer.
I would love to be there and bring up the subject of fluoride and chemtrails and a few other things that the g’ment contributes to people getting cancer.
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Chemotherapy is a con,it only works in 2.8% of all cases and 75% of doctors would refuse it if they were the ones who were prescribed it. Please research the subject people and don’t follow blindly the ‘party line’,as regards your treatment.
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I doubt that anything you’ve said has helped anybody because, frankly you’re a bit of a Katie Hopkins.
For some reason I couldn’t reply to your response to my last post. But it’s clear you’re [ctrl] C+Ping from documents you have no understanding of and then posting them in a discussion that has no relevance (eg you mention misconduct wrt JSA in a discussion of ESA).
Please leave this discussion, you’re helping nobody and potentially damaging people.
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No, he’s a troll
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My daughter who is severely visually impaired got a letter from atos saying they wanted proof that she couldn’t cross the road safely! Thankfully are more sensible / human person rang her and sorted it out.
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he talks a lot of common sense and science. I’ve seen very little of that from other posts, just a load of emotive nonsense!
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The dwp is controlled by the government too.
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Reblogged this on Beastrabban’s Weblog.
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Janet Ritchie
The letter your daughter received like hundreds perhaps thousands of others, in devil’s advocate’s eyes was just a mistake from these so called humans that send them out.
To defend your case in order to find someone that may be even half human enough to understand, you are considered to be emotive, expressing a knee jerk reaction and passing judgement on those that are passing judgement, i.e. mad medics, dictatorial dwp and ministers that are monsters.
They truly are all in it together. Bullying bureaucracy.
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sorry Janette miss spelt your name.
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Heracl, if your husband worked and paid National Insurance, why would he be reluctant to claim sickness benefit when obviously sick? Thats what National Insurance is for, it is his right to claim if he is proved to be unable to work due to sickness. Being a martyr doesnt get you anywhere
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Devil’s Advocate-
For information: smoking and drinking are not risk factors for Ewing’s Sarcoma. There are no avoidable risk factors for Ewing’s Sarcoma, which mainly affects people between the ages of 10 and 20.
http://cancer.stanford.edu/sarcoma/ewings_sarcoma/risk-factors.html
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Reblogged this on Through My Eyes and commented:
Terrible – sadly not the first occasion I’ve seen others. For every case that makes it to Facebook there will be many more that don’t.
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David, theclaims you repeat come from websites like that bastion of quackery, Natural News and just a little research will debunk them.
1).’ Chemotherapy…only works in 2.8% of all cases’. That particular bogus statistic has been doing the rounds for some time; it’s based on manipulation of the wording used in a study(and the study itself was flawed). Read this article for the facts: http://anaximperator.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/only-3-percent-survive-chemotherapy/
You can see that:
the study didn’t say that chemotherapy was “only 3% effective”; It said that the contribution to survival from chemotherapy alone was 3%. However, it made several errors in calculating this statistic::
* It didn’t include all cancers.
* For the cancers it did include, it also included early stage cancers (where chemotherapy isn’t used) and very late-stage cancers (where no treatment is effective) without differentiating between them.
* It excluded cancers where chemotherapy is very effective.
* It included cancers where surgery was the primary treatment and chemotherapy is an adjuvant only.
2). ‘75% of doctors would refuse it if they were the ones who were prescribed it’.
This is a distortion of the results of a very small survey, a distortion is often repeated by people too lazy to check the facts or too gullible to question what they’re told.
Here’s where that so-called statistic originates:
In 1986 a questionnaire was sent to 118 doctors who treated non-small-cell lung cancer, many of whom were involved in trials at McGill University of chemotherapy drugs for lung cancer. They were asked to imagine that they themselves had cancer, and were asked which of the six current trials they themselves would choose. 79 responded, 64 of whom (approx 80%) said they would not consent to be in a trial containing Cisplatin, one of the drugs being trialled and a common chemotherapy drug.
An interesting result, but a far cry from ”75% of physicians would refuse chemotherapy ” . Read the facts about this questionnaire, and a follow-up questionnaire a year later, here:
Please do the research you are urging others to do on the subject
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I’m obviously not that. I’m not claiming anything derogatory against Miss Buckley’s case and I’m certainly not merely resorting to personal attack or ad hominem again the people posting comments. I’m using my skepticism and reasoning to say what a lot of people here will say in a few days once the red mist has cleared from their eyes. Since when was credulity a virtue? I do think that Mr Nelson was wrong to crowd source Miss Buckley’s letter, but I’ve said time and time again that I sympathise with the case, but I’m being realistic about it rather than faking repulsion for the sake of some online “We’re all in this together” bullshit ideaology.
It’s become ok to hate the government for things the government do not do. Godwin’s Law gets enacted sooner and sooner and from there, there’s no more conversation to be had. A lot of people here are simply ad homineming the government or poisioning the well for the JCP and ATOS. We all know it’s bad, and propaganda such as this is powerful. But, we shouldn’t be blind to the reality of the situation. Don’t be dragged into hasty generalisations or composition fallacies. Straw man arguments get people nowhere.
Also, we’ve asked for decades for cases to be handled on a case by case basis. And then, when they are, we complain. Anyone can pick up a phone and say “I need DLA, I’m blind.”, anyone can say “I have cancer”. Why is it that people can treat benefit fraudsters with such utter contempt and then in the very next sentence stand up for barely anecdotal evidence of disability or illness. It beggars belief. Cynacism, skepticism, reason and evidence are good things, don’t treat them as vices.
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Enlist the help of Dimbleby or Macmillan . . . I had a lot of help from them regarding DWP
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I took time out to read through the document which was posted on this page, giving the criteria for disqualification regarding Miss Buckley’s case. This document was previously cited by people on this page as being the regulations that had to be followed. So, copy-pasting, yes. In context, towards my statement, yes. I do not claim authority or absolute knowledge. I was increaasing my understanding of the situation. The lines I quoted were the exact following sentences from where Hosylass had quoted regarding the sanctioning. Can he, at least, recieve the same verbal backlash. If of course, it is deserved for both of us. We are all in this together are we not?
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Louise, as has been stated on here before; alcoholism and addictive drugs are grounds for disqualification. Regardless of whether it aggrovates the illness. There has to be some standard when dealing with these cases otherwise you get into relativism and playing one person’s illness off against another. So, the burdon of proof is placed where it should logically be.
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These days nothing would surprise me given what I’ve learned about A.T.O.S ..However I do believe this is a case of the d.w.p doing what they do best…cocking it up..! incompetence…and that’s rife…
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Devil’s Advocate,
that is the poorest most insensitive bad taste retort based on your name sake i have ever seen on here.
May i sugest…….Actually no. I WILL SAY>
Go back to school if you do not understand the language of the country whose benefit system you comment on.
It CLEARLY states in the letter that
“We have now decided that you “did” contribute to your condition”
I can only put your total lack of understanding down to a lack of comprehension skills, or a deliberate act of “trolling”.
Either way, You have completely failed to see the gravitas of this letter, &/or you refuse to.
Or may be you work for the DWP. HmmMMMm…..
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Luke,
The letter states that, based on the guidelines which have to be followed for each case, the decision had to be made against her claim.
To reach a decision such as this, she would have had to have had Limited Capability for Work, through her own misconduct; failed to attend or submit to medical treatment which could help her; drink or use addictive drugs with no plan for cessation; changed her living circumstances without notification; ignore or be ignorant of the rule of behaviour expected of her with regards to her condition or failed to notify them of her condition.
What it does not do is place the blame upon her for her illness. It does not state that she is at fault for having cancer.
Julie then launched into a full slippery slope argument, taking things way out of proportion and resorting to sarcastic backbiting.
The languageof the letter does lend toward confusion. I have spoken to JCP about similar in the past. It is a problem with articulating the letter and spirit of the guidelines in an objective fashion. The letters are algorithmically mail merged and so can appear disjointed. The letter purveys the guidelines written in the language and style of legal document. That’s where the main problem lies, regarding miscomunication.
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Strangely enough, both of my consultant oncologists and my surgeons have all told me and other patients never to blame themselves for getting cancer. Science and medicine simply do not yet know what causes most cancers and to attribute blame to one particular lifestyle activity or several can only, at best indicate possible conditions of the cell where cancerous changes may take place.
I wonder if those who have mesothelioma have had their benefits stopped/cut/sanctioned because they once came into contact with asbestos (either working with it or had to live with it in their homes) at a time when no one knew that asbestos caused fatal disease? Do they get told that they are to blame for their condition?
Cancer is a very complex set of diseases.
Many people don’t realise that cancer isn’t just one disease. There are over 250 types of cancer, many tumours actually comprise of more than one type of cancer. Do the DWP intend to train their DMs in pathology or oncology? I doubt it. So for one anonymous DM to make the decision as expressed in the letter, is wildly off mark for any cancer and probably for most other conditions.
It’s not worth lambasting those with drug or alcohol dependence problems for causing their own condition either. Blame leaves no way forward. Blame burdens an individual to the point where they may increase their consumption of what is making them ill.
For the passive aggressive, angels of sanctimony who live their lives as if their body was a temple, who don’t eat meat, fish, fat or sugar, pound the streets running or hammer away at the gym, swallowing endless (and largely pointless) supplements. Just remember, getting older is the biggest risk for cancer there is. Nothing beats it. Neither can you change your genetic heritage. Yes, you perfectly fit people, you probably will get cancer too. When you inevitably have to apply for social security benefits and are refused, how will you respond? Will you stick your hand up faster than a big sucky swot at the front of the class and loudly own up to causing your own cancer and thank the DWP for outing you as a malingering fraudster? I very much doubt it.
As for the notion that refusing treatment might land you with a sanction or having your award taken away completely. Think about this, treatments for most cancers are complex and brutal, despite oncology, surgery and radiography staff doing what they can to help you get through the treatment, some treatments and the side effects caused are going to be too much for an individual to endure. Mentally and physically, the treatments will affect both parts of you.
No matter how much the oncologist wants you to take the pill with the quality of life wrecking side effects, they will, if they are worth their salt, accept that some people will be worse off and the treatment is likely to be intolerable for them. The oncologists that I encounter are perfectly accepting of this fact and do what they can to either help a patient cope with debilitating side effects or help the patient come to terms with the decision they have made.
Sometimes a treatment is just too difficult for an individual to cope with. Doctors who practice the art of medicine and not tick box medicine are attuned to this concept.
There is never any berating or punishment for recognising that you have got to the end of the line of what you personally can cope with. One oncologist told me that he sees people trying desperately hard to comply with taking medicines that debilitate them more than the cancer, and on occasion he has to counsel them to consider their quality of life against the perceived and actual benefit of continuing with the treatment
The endocrine drugs that many with cancer have to take for up to ten years after diagnosis, all carry great risk of causing serious and sometimes fatal problems in the human body. If these drugs weren’t for cancer, but for some other less dangerous condition, they would never be licenced. But cancer is considered differently to other conditions, because it appears to be such a brutal and stealthy disease that a small improvement in actual risk of recurrence (often no greater actual risk reduction than 3%) is worth taking the risk of taking the endocrine therapies.
As patients, and with cancer, a very complex disease with myriad types of treatment we are not always in a position to make truly informed decisions about what treatments we take up. At the time of diagnosis, you are watching your whole life change dramatically, you may be in shock, you may be very ill, you may be terrified. It is possible to make the wrong decision. Good doctors will treat you humanely and explain in ways you can understand how a treatment “may” help you.
That’s the bottom line. The treatments may help you. They may not.
This is the one of the big problems. Even with drugs like Tamoxifen, that has been around for well over 30 years, the benefits of risk of recurrence only show up when you start to look at the statistics of vast numbers of patients taking the drug over many years. The drug and it’s regimen is not fallible, nor are any of these drugs easy to take or tolerate for many medical reasons. Some people cannot take them.
I’ve known a couple of people who took all the treatments and surgeries, both lived “healthy” lives, one died last week with a breast cancer that had spread to her bones, her lungs, her liver, her stomach and her spine. She took the drugs for seven years and still got the cancer back. The other person, the last time I saw her at the clinic, had just been told that her cancer had spread to her brain. She was now in a wheelchair and her speech and eyesight was affected badly. She took the endocrine drugs for nine years, the cancer stayed away, then came back.
It’s very worrying that the concept of “blame the patient” is being demonstrated by faceless DMs. Many of whom won’t be educated past the age of 16 and for those who have worked at the DWP since they left school, they likely won’t have much life experience outside the cosy little microcosm of the DWP. If they have to look up a disease on google, then I’d moot they shouldn’t be in their post at all.
If you get cancer, bad luck. It is not your fault. Nor should anyone tell you it is your fault. No oncologist of worth is going to tell you that, because simply put, you have the cancer and the best thing to do is treat it, not to waste time climbing to the moral high ground whilst bullying and berating the patient for non compliance and fault. Blame isn’t medicine.
The DWP demonstrate their wilful and casual ignorance with the letter they sent to that lady telling her that she contributed to her medical condition. Maybe one day, the person who sent this letter out will get the jolly, life changing cancer diagnosis. I wonder, as they sit their having chemo, vomiting or maybe going into chemo induced shock or lying in ICU semi conscious and recovering from a bad dose of neutropenia if they will recognise it is now time to justly beat themselves to death with the thought “I caused my cancer because I was feckless and irresponsible”
I doubt that they will. They will be just the same as the other people with cancer who they may have sanctioned or returned an unfavourable decision to. Frightened, in pain and totally desolate. The people at the DWP who push out these atrocious letters, those who sanction, refuse benefits, bully and menace claimants, have forgotten that but for a little bit of luck, there go I.
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If not human, what are they? What, in your view, determines one’s species?
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Devil’s advocate has been playing a blinder here. This is a classic example of a standard attack meme. These follow a clearly identifiable pattern:
1) Evidence is produced of a clearly indefensible situation, and a statement made that this is evidence of one or other piece of Tory Government evil
2) Our outrage is invited, and usually obtained
3) The meme is spread unquestioned and becomes part of the body of evidence supporting similar memes.
As DA has pointed out, there are some problems with this. Firstly only very partial evidence is produced, in this case a section of a letter. Looking into this in detail suggests that there has been if anything a temporary problem, and most importantly because of confidentiality rules the other side – whether it’s cock up or conspiracy – can’t be stated. So the best you can say is that this indicates what seems to be a ridiculous situation but we don’t have all the facts. In order to make it worse, you have to have already decided that this is part of a pattern of behaviour which has been revealed by basically identical memes (with similar problems).
When you dig into these situations, pretty much always you find a very different situation. I was looking at “only 300 people employed on tax compliance against 3500 for benefit fraud” meme during the week, and in fact between 25,000 and 28,500 are employed for tax compliance, and the 300 needs a very narrow definition indeed to be true. The memes rely on people not fact checking or being in a position to contextualize properly, and that is done cynically and intentionally.
In other words, these memes SPECIFICALLY misrepresent to make a political point. If the Government is deliberately targeting the terminally ill to reduce spending in a heartless and callous way I would be as angry as anyone, yet the facts really don’t show that. And yes, I know there are dozens of examples of memes just like this one building the same picture, but they’re similarly shaky. If you want this to be evidence, the people involve have to give permission for the other side to reveal details of the case so a balanced picture can be given. Was this a mistake? How long was the sanction for? Was it correct under benefit rules? Have the rules changed during this Government?
What is more depressing for anyone who believes in facts and legitimate debate is that these techniques come directly from the US Far Right – the attack ads that became current in the late 1980s and beyond. It’s fairly easy to stir up outrage using decontextualized information, and once you have made someone angry they will cling to the belief that stirs the strong emotion. I’d be pretty certain that this comment will be attacked, probably on the basis that I’m a Tory stool pigeon (I’m not), and a set of ad hominems and outraged statements.
So let’s be clear. This accusation might be true. How would we prove that? Have we been given all of the facts, and if not why not? What are the possible explanations? If we’re prepared to do the spadework to find out, we’ll learn something that may be useful. If not, we risk being manipulated by demagogues and activists.
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As a brief add on…
Isn’t coercion to take up any medical treatment against the law because it amounts to social control?
Maybe someone knows this law and could expand?
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lucy
thank you for expressing what so many feel….but for the grace of god go i…
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I’ve had to unsubscribe to the comments here. The number of uneducated, unscientific comments are doing my nut in! Please, please read what Devil’s Advocate is trying to say, read the points he is making and have a think. I’m afraid the majority of attempts to ridicule him have culminated in the responders looking dense and ridiculous.
The cuts we are experiencing are harsh. We knew they would be harsh. But to join in on hype and hysteria over one letter, for which there is *no* evidence that it exists in the context it has been placed, so that people can get their government bashing statement in, is stupid. The government are right winged benefit cutting harsh bell ends, yes, but I’m afraid this letter simply doesn’t exemplify what you are all trying to say. You are putting two and two together and coming out with 5. And for anyone to say it does portray correctly that an individual (i.e. the letter writer) and the whole of the government holds no empathy for a cancer patient is showing that they probably never learned a type of critical thinking at university, nor do they understand the benefit system.
I’m off and out. Devils advocate, you’re fighting a losing battle. Left wing propaganda has become as arrogant and unscientific as the right wing. I’m becoming pissed off with the left wing now, despite my internal belief for equality, as so many left wingers are arguing without valid evidence. This means their battle is as weak and futile as the tories is. And you aren’t going to ‘win’ like that. Please educate yourselves!
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however the ” motivation ” for such a sanction is based on this …..it’s basically …..we don’t think you are trying hard enough and we are hoping you are daft / naive / gullible enough to believe it’s ” all your fault ” so you won’t make any trouble for us / anybody …#ATOS use it in occupational health …however they are only telling the employer what they want to hear …and yes it’s the #Unum ( formerly the outlawed Unum Provident ) derived …the bio – psychosocial pseudo science mantra .
All a claimant needs to do is miss an appointment for whatever reason ….they then on Planet #DWP are * apparently not helping themselves and seemingly playing on the condition / ailment / disease etc …BS I know …and it’ll probably get laughed out of a tribunal ….the Decision Maker will be ” under pressure ” from on high and get brownie points for this .
http://www.therainbowblog.co.uk/physiotherapists-banned-from-touching-patients/
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dear devil’s ad.
get a fucking life.
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“but I’m afraid this letter simply doesn’t exemplify what you are all trying to say”
All of us?
Isn’t lumping everyone together (without reading or understanding their posts) also a form of the hysterical response you are accusing other commenters of indulging in?
Oh the irony.
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Lucy,
I am no expert in law, but we do have the guidelines that are used for cases such as this:
Click to access dmg-vol9-ch53.pdf
The relevelent section runs from 53130 through 53159. The specifics of treatment are listing in 53140 through 53142 but should be taken in context with the surrounding clauses and subclauses. the most important parts however, are 53131 and 53136, which point out the spirit of the guidelines, rather than the letter.
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Personal attack is the lowest form of logical fallacy to indulge in. Do you have anything constructive to add to the debate in question here? I, for one, would be most interested in reading your thoughts on the point in contention.
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it’s based on this – basically it’s we don’t really believe you , we don’t think you are trying hard enough …and we are hoping you are daft / naive / gullible enough to believe it is all your own fault …so you don’t make any trouble for us or anyone else for that matter . The #Unum ( formerly the outlawed Unum Provident ) Bio – psychosocial mantra .
#ATOS use it in Occupational Health …however they are merely telling the employer only what they want to hear …to justify the contract . The Employer doesn’t want the employee going to the Union …telling ” tales out of class ” to the HSE ( Health and Safety Executive ) / LA Environmental Health …putting in claims …#ATOS will not want people reporting Doctors to the GMC or Nurses etc to the NMWC either …” causing a stir ” .
At work as people have discussed …you may , just may ” trip up ” the odd professional claimer / skiver / malingerer that is * apparently ” playing on something ” and / or the odd alcoholic / someone with a drink problem that has a self inflicted condition …it depends if you tolerate necessary evils or go all holier than thou …if the latter you must expect to be challenged / contradicted
…and if the assertion is made that someone is ” playing on ” a condition / ailment / disease etc ….you have to do it properly …as it has to stand up in a Tribunal …not playing Saloon Bar doctor as the #DWP Decision Maker has appeared to have done ….Amateurish ! too clever by half
What appears to have happened is that someone has missed an appointment etc at a hospital …for whatever reason ..and has been deemed to be not trying hard enough hence the sanction …it fits into the Uber Neo Liberal deserving and undeserving poor / stock ideological categories …the pressure is coming from way on high …there will be opportunities for Brownie Points …or staving off disciplinary action for a little longer …depending how you look at things
http://www.therainbowblog.co.uk/physiotherapists-banned-from-touching-patients/
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I’m curious; where do you think the burdon of proof should lie?
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D A
tell me what is the current process one must go through to get esa benefits?
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ps please everyone bare with me i know it i wonder if DA does, it is in the process that he will find answers to his questions…now step by step please DA…
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lisagirl
personally i am responding to the whole post, imv this has a lot to do with MR, the implication is that she was already on esa benefits and for some unknown reason they were stopped WHY were they stopped before the 19/11/13? from the 19/11/13 to 7/12/13 they were not in payment, i assume this was MR?….then a sanction?…benefit sanctions are at a all time high atm…in work poverty is soaring…and many more in poverty deaths are being reported, winter alone kills thousands…..the highlighted situation can and does happen often….
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Tbh I meant in general. Where should the burdon of proof lie? On any matter. What should the default position be on any given subject? Should credulity be given equal standard to skepticism? That’s what I was asking.
But, I’ll bite…
1. I would gather together all the evidence I can, including:
* National Insurance number
* Medical certificate
* GP’s address and phone number
* Home and mobile telephone numbers
* Mortgage or landlord details
* Council tax bill
* Employer’s address and telephone number and dates of employment or last day worked
* Bank account details
* Details of any other money I was getting, eg benefits or sick pay.
1a.I would take advice from my GP and any specialists I was seeing regarding my case and ask them to write independent summaries and references to be used as evidence of my right to claim.
2. I would spread all the evidence over my dining room table in such a way that it was easily accessible when information was asked for.
3. I would phone 0800 055 6688 shortly after lunch time towards the end of the week. I would treat the gatekeeper with respect, observing the fact that they are in a restrictive, thankless and tireless job. I would answer the tirade of questions which I understand may not apply to my case but a bespoke personalised application form perfect for my needs would be useless.
4. If I find that the evidence I have to hand is not adequate for their needs at that time then I would arrange a consultation at my local JCP to speak in person with an advisor.
5. I would send off any evidence which needs sent off. I understand that I hold the burdon of proof for my own condition and that this burdon of proof must be met. I would place all the evidence within a folder, with colour coded separaters and write a cover letter, explaining what evidence has been enclosed; cross referencing this with the guidelines which state what evidence is suitable for what purpose.
6. If a decision was sent back as a no then I would critically examine all the reasons they state why the decision was made and take steps to remedy the situation. If needs be, I would take advice from the CAB or from JCP personal advisors. I would recheck the guidelines and only resond after a few days when I have had a chance to get my head around the legal jargon which is used.
7. I would understand that my situation is not unique and not particularly special. I’m disabled or ill. So what? Why does that make me special? Why should I recieve preferencial treatment over the millions of other people who are ill or disabled? I would understand that the process I have been through is necessary. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than shifting the burdon of proof and removing the safety net.
8. If I felt that I was being treated unfairly at any stage of the process, I would imediately take this up with CAB. I would save every single piece of correspondance, write down the name of every single gatekeeper I spoke to, along with the time and date of the conversation. I would do everything I could to help them help me and most of all, I would not be afraid to say “Help me, I have no idea what I’m doing”. I would use every single resource I could find to help me and use them to their fullest.
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Pingback: DWP blames cancer patient for her illness | precipuaconsilia
How on earth did she manage to flip to her own chromosomes, DWP?!
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How on earth can anyone be blamed for something that is totally not their fault. These people need our support, not told that it’s down to their own misdemeanours!!
I am totally disgusted with the DWP on stating otherwise!!
I myself suffered from Breast Cancer some years ago, something I know was totally not my fault. Yes, I was one of the lucky ones who survived, but understand just how pathetic this statement is!!
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I think Devil’s Advocate, in all his/her posts, has it absolutely right. Initially, my first reaction was deep sympathy for the recipient. But then, I thought of how such a letter could be issued. You see, it is the system, not the person administering the system. The system is flawed, as are most systems in some way. It is not fatally flawed, just flawed. The ideal system would be one where each and every case is reviewed from start to end, by an individual, taking time to meet and understand a claimants case and understand the specific medical aspects in question. However, such a system is impossible to administer and would cost so much as no one could afford to pay it. So a system has been developed to sort through and assess cases electronically (for efficiency), using various formulas, in an attempt to screen out the benefit fraud from those that are genuine. This is an imperfect system agreed, but one which is necessary. On occasion (perhaps fairly frequently), the system gets it wrong. The system generates these “standard letters” and with human error, they get sent.
Simply put, the best cause of action would be to lodge an appeal, and have a senior case worker review the details. If it is indeed an incorrect assessment, then corrective action would be commenced. If not, then at least a comprehensible reasoning can be provided.
It is very sad that someone with such a debilitating medical condition as this should find themselves having to go through such additional steps to obtain the assistance they desperately require, and that they received such insensitive notification, but it is unfortunately a consequence of an imperfect system.
To apportion blame to any one individual, in this case, is knee-jerk and misdirected. Mistakes do happen, and are made by all of us without exception, in some form or another.
I hope that this individual is able to resolve her claim correctly and with the least stress and upset possible. She is fortunate to have a boyfriend who will do his best to assist and support her, though I hope he is able to see past the surface inappropriateness of the letter, and provide positive support to secure the best outcome.
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Atos and the dwp are stupid
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Out of control yo… We need a seperate. Police team to monitor all councillers mp judges activity as this and other stories like this is crazy all are corupted in some way.. then we can make judgement on Who eats n Who starves
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words fail me…… they cannot possibly sink any lower…..
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No punctuation marks were harmed during the composition of this comment. :p
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Thank you Devil’s Advocate.
This is not what I was thinking of initially, I know I have read about coercion not being permitted. This was from the period when the Welfare Reform Act was being prepared and I am sure it was from the House of Lords, reminding IDS that social control was not permitted.
The clauses in the DM Guide contain many opportunities for a DM to casually make the wrong decision or possibly coerce someone to take up a treatment that they may not wish to and they perceive as potentially causing them harm. The threat of the loss of a roof over one’s head is very real for many people awaiting these type of decisions.
In my experience, putting away personal prejudice (and experience) is rather hard for many JC+ and DWP workers. The same as it is for all of us.
There is too much misunderstanding of cancer (and many, many other conditions) for decisions on the cause of a condition or on someone’s appropriate treatment to be made by a civil service clerk.
It is very worrying to see how easily someone could be stopped from taking up a treatment because they are scared to be seen to be “stringing it out” or to avoid a sanction. It is even more worrying that a civil servant should have any say whatsoever in a patient’s approach to evaluation of whether a treatment is for them or not. This kind of issue should be between the patient and the doctors only.
If specialist medical staff state that a treatment is necessary but the patient is unable to tolerate it, can a DM step in and sanction an individual or end their claim? The possibilities, in this constant glow of the DWP making horrendous errors are pretty endless.
In April we are likely to see a roll out of a scheme whereby anyone on ESA can be asked to attend a meeting with DWP appointed Health Care Professionals to discuss their condition and treatment in detail and take up DWP recommendations for treatment – no matter how inappropriate they are. The opportunities for abuse are huge.
We all know that the term HCP can mean “qualified, experienced, competent medical professional” or “struck off bitter/drunk in need of some pin money” – In April it may gain a new meaning because the money on offer to pay these HCPs will be very small and I am concerned that with a few weeks of cheap training, JC+ clerks and their like may be carrying out these interviews dealing dubiously with very private personal information about illness and pushing individuals towards treatment that counters what actual doctors have recommended, on threat of sanction.
Invitation letters to claimants are to contain the threat of loss of benefits for non attendance. I fear that these HCPs will be towing the “pull your socks up, think yourself happy, take the pills” line that has infiltrated pretty much every level of MH provision and is gradually seeping into medicine generally.
One area which is of particular concern is the promotion of generic, group CBT as the answer/cure to all psychological illness or injury (and some physical ones) I have seen this therapy cause immense damage to several individuals. A Senior Clinical Psychologist has told me that he has seen CBT wreck individuals and lead them into serious breakdown. He believes that it is being used by those who are not trained properly, nor fully educated in the implications of it’s use. Yet the last government loved it (courtesy of the careering charlatan, Simon Wessley) this government loves it. Everyone loves it, except the majority who actually do it and find it of no help.
An area assessor for a company delivering IAPT CBT told me it would be the very last therapy she would choose for herself or anyone she cared about, but was quite happy to push it onto her clients/patients, some of whom had severe and enduring MH illness/injuries. See NICE for information on the 84% drop out rate for IAPT provision of CBT and how it is considered to have rather less effect than doing nothing, since its effectiveness is only considered against the waiting list.
A DM might personally know someone who had cancer (substitute any illness of disability you like) and did this treatment or that treatment or refused a treatment and they will then be tempted to apply that limited anecdote to the cases they are making decisions on. I do realise that guidelines are brief and are just that – guidelines, but DWP/JC+ workers have increasingly fewer options to act on sensible discretion. We have seen countless re-ports of sanction/award refusal targets in the system and constant denial that targets exist, but they do exist. They might be dressed up fancy as norm referencing or encouraged by Easter Egg prizes, but the targets are there.
So whilst I can see why you object to this particular letter being presented as a truth, I believe that the issue of a civil service clerk coercing an already ill or disabled individual to take up any kind of treatment or a DM deciding that an award should be curtailed due to a claimants contribution to their condition or choice of treatment, is the more important issue to object to.
I do wish I could find that piece on coercion.
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Ollie
The dwp and other public services are employing wind up merchants with the gift of the gab. These letter’s are not accidental they are deliberate because they know they can get away with it, mainstream media is terrified of touching anything like this.
They consider themselves to be logical when arguing that black is white, wrong is right, but what they lack is any sentinel feelings, they are dehumanized by their own self importance and their justification for denying claimants benefits.
Cab like the dwp is unrecognizable and is staffed by people forced into charity work.
Their initial port of call is one of a slick business type manner that is more interested in what they cannot do for you than what they can, the same can be said for the legal profession that no longer deals with or is funded for benefit clients, unless they can pay for it themselves. I did not see the barristers marching over stopping legal aid for this, everything was just piled onto the citizen’s advice service.
Bullies love to be on the winning side which seems to be the majority of those in positions of power and influence, by God this country is being run by Devils with no advocacy about them and turn a blind eye to the deprivation and killing of real human beings, who just happen to be in the minority and would rather suffer than join the ranks of the don’t give a damns.
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In 2005 the DWP informed me that I couldn’t claim Disability payments for my 2yr old as his medical condition wasn’t “serious” enough – He had a malignant Brain Tumour and required surgery, intense chemotherapy, radiotherapy then more chemotherapy overall lasting over 12 months. Luckily we had a lovely socialworker at the hospital who appealed on our behalf and won. Not what you need when you are dealing with Cancer.
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im a cancer patient my self i think it is disgusting im the same te advert on the tv says ur not alone and my god u are i ave been waiting nearly six months now to here off pip dwp iv worked all my life now im off my work place stopped my pay and said i have to claim ssp of income support iv had no money no help off any one and they tell u not to stress while ur ill how can u not stress when u r getting into debt while being sick im saying what has this world come to when uv no were to turn and every time u phone they say its with asses team my heart goes out to any one who has to go threw canncer never mind getting in to debt aswell not a nice place wat so ever to ever be in i wish i could do something to help other people but i just woudnt no were to start sorry i just had to tell some one xxxxxx
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d a
how do you spell burdon?
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I hope that one day, you will come around from your disillusionment. You have done nothing but equivocate in this post. As is your right to do so. You also have the right to be wrong, or at least ignorant of the truth. But don’t start passing your substituted illusion of the system off as reality. What you’ve said there is fatuous and asinine.
There is no conspiracy. Save your bile for something worth spewing it over. Use your critical evaluation skills, along with your skepticism and reasoning. Get rid of blind faith and credulity. Believe things for good reasons, not no reason or bad reasons. The cliams being made within this article are ridiculous. The title of the article alone is fatuous. The letter doesn’t say what the article says it says. No DM would ever come to that conclusion because it’s not one of the conclusions they are allowed to come to. Ridiculous claims are, by definition, deserving of ridicule. The only reason this “mainstream media” you speak of acts the way they do is because idiots like you pander to their stories and lap up everything they write. They play the Machiavellian card very well.
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Point taken, accepted and apologised for. Thank you for pointing out my err. I would remind you, however, that punctuation and spelling are different things and the comment was written with my tongue lodged firmly in my cheek. 😀
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After a little think, it looks like the DWP are just extending their abuse of the Biopsychosocial model of illness and disability. It has certainly worked for ATOS working for the DWP using LIMA, and now it looks like it is being used directly by the DWP. It isn’t directly referred to in the DWP DM Guide, but aspects of the guide look like the bastard offspring of it.
A piece from 2012 with a good explanation
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Curious to know why not enough NI had been paid? or indeed if the claim was for a further illness of which they will not account, I don’t think it fair to judge unless I’d knew the full case. But of course that statement is stupid if indeed it is refering to what you said it is?!
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da
that is as maybe, put the punctuation in as you read and hear the persons voice….
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“Let’s eat, Grandma!”
“Let’s eat Grandma!”
Punctuation saves lives.
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Devil’s advocate.
It is you and people like you that are the Machiavellian’s of society which does include the press also.
Insulting me and the many that have written in here condemning your way of thinking, will not change anything.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see and you are the one that is delusional given your disgustingly bias opinion that people should be denied benefits if they are somehow to blame for their illnesses.
Everybody is going to die sometime and will need nurturing not nagging by the likes of you, a paid up member of the propaganda brigade.
You may think you are immortal but again that is your ego speaking to you and the illogical mind that is more interested in science then sentiment or sense, that cares about no-one but themselves – I hope you do live forever in a landscape of a humane society, because for you it will be sheer HELL.
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Since when was bein Machiavellian a bad thing? If I insulted you, it was because you chose to take offense. To whit, you chose to take to heart that which was not meant to be taken to heart.
“My way of thinking” as you like to call it, is usinging my faculties such as reasoning, critical thinking, self-correcting mechanisms that are reliable based on repeatable, predicable experimentation. Biasy is taken away from the equation as you introduce independent verification of findings. That is how I live my life. Credulity and faith are repugnant concepts worthy only of contempt because I want to believe as many true things and disbelieve as many false things as possible. I fail to see why this is a bad thing.
One day I will die, I know that, I’m not immortal. I’m certainly not out to prop up anyone’s propaganda. Mainly because that would go against everything I have just stated I hold dear. The only think I have asked people to do here is to think before typing. I also fail to see why that is such an immoral standpoint.
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D A
the most vital over arching point to remember is that, one is sick and disabled and suffering from a profound lack of energy.at the outset of this process, and probably for a while whilst one ponders what is wrong with one, and one goes through various stages of denial and trying this that or the other, before embarking on the gruelling process of explaining symptoms to gp, therefore admitting symptoms to self..so one is likely to be very drained at the outset of this, when life is about to be turned on it’s head with a life changing diagnosis et al…we all have mountains of filed paperwork spread about,mine is over a ft high, and rising…illness causes a profound lack of vitality, one has to push one’s self at every stage of this gruelling process….a gp highly trained sees many many sick people, one explains to gp symptoms, gp gives one fit note on it is box, they tick box “not fit for work”, at that point there might not be a diagnosis…personally one of my med problems is an industrial injury…should i be blamed for it? what about if one is addicted to prescribed drugs? by and by…tests are run to find causes of symptoms, causes of symptoms confirmed…i felt relief, at least i now know why i cannot work, case solved, we all agree nhs gp and self…in the mean time send in fit note, apply for esa benefits,speak to very helpful person at the end of 0800 no, great, job done, sent esa50, send it back, gp sends their med report in….wait to go onto full esa rate…then hold on what’s this app for WCA, go in my case several times due to app cancellation when i got there…remember i still sick, and not fully diagnosed at this point…get letter from dwp then dm’s report, “you are fit for work,” eh! get med report of WCA, a complete fabrication all this time, i send in new fit notes…suddenly all of my symptoms that led to diagnosis have vanished, an another person that is still me has emerged, symptom free and full of vitality,ON PAPER ALL benefits stopped….next step send in gl24, thoroughly explain every thing get phone call from dwp dm, anything to add, no, what would you like to hear? i think i’ve said it all, my gp believed me, why not you? get their no! sod off decision, appeal auto lodged with 1st tier tribunal and also explain to council why i still need a roof over my head as all passported benefits have been stopped, an rgn has found me fit for work and poured scorn on me and the entire nhs…do you see where this is going…how could i have intervened in practice…no benefits and up the creek without a paddle…..do you see this? one can only explain as fully as one is able to explain, still sick remember? then get to appeal and win appeal full benefits awarded, then another letter inviting me to a fresh WCA..implicitly asking are your incurable illnesses cured yet? eh!…new WCA says yes you are cured…benefits stopped reapply for hb etc send in new gl24 etc etc…more WCA fabrications…more fit notes and on on it goes…gp myself the entire nhs still disagree with the fit for work decision…now with new add on’s MR which means no esa benefits until MR is done, and “think might help” which means according to one blog i have read no benefits until this is shown not to work/help….catch22 go on jsa or starve in other words say that i am fit for work…
http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/09/dwp-dismisses-talk-of-fitness-for-work-catch-22/ the burden of proof lies with the sick and disabled claimant, it should not the dispute is between the nhs and the dwp and no one else….
“4. If I find that the evidence I have to hand is not adequate for their needs at that time then I would arrange a consultation at my local JCP to speak in person with an advisor.”
until after the esa50 is sent in, WCA done, you will not know if your evidence is adequate or not, (have you have no benefits), and in fact it never is as they always want one more piece of evidence…remember the entire nhs do think ones evidence is adequate for the dwp’s needs, and one i still SICK..sickness cannot be neatly rationally planned for it is thrown at one….i expect my a/c is incomplete, but it is the best that i can do atm…
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da
so does a rational mind….
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I got a letter last year from them to say they not write again but ATOS have wrote to ask me to explain why I have MS why I wanted MS and have said they have a cure for it they say MS is like a English Flu does not last long yet doctors world wide have not found a cure for it
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I understand what you are saying. I have been through diagnosis for MS recently (still ongoing) and it is terrifiying. Not knowing what is wrong or why things are happening. I’ve had to put PLPs in place at Uni and they can be just as strict. I delibrately haven’t played my sob story card though because it’s pointless out of context. I can merely say that I understand (partially) the process one has to go through and explain how I would handle it based on my previous encounters and disputes and appeals with JCP, SFE and CAB.
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Devils advocate
You sound like one of your positive thinking manuals, except that it is anything but positive.
No reply necessary.
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Please provide evidence for this claim. I have MS and would be interested to see in exactly what context these assertions were made. Can you provide an image of the letter in question in full?
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My, my, Devil’s Advocate, what a clever little boy you are.
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Why, thank you, Mistress. 😀
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I still fail to see what is so negative about reasoning and skepticism and critical thinking. Do you think credulity is a good thing? Please help me to understand your worldview because, as I have stated, my main aim in life is to irradicate as many of my belief as possible that turn out to be fatuous as soon as possible.
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There does seem to be something going on here that is redolent of the divide and rule ideology that gushes forth from every governmenta; orifice.
We are encouraged by our rancid MSM to believe that there are deserving and undeserving poor. Are we now being encouraged to believe that if a JC+ clerk with no medical training of any sort, thinks that we might have caused our cancers by being a bit too fat or not running at least one half marathon a year, our cancers are our own fault and we should be punished with some extra distress and extreme poverty.
Deserving and undeserving disease and illness. I’m surprised that the Daily Mail hasn’t run a feature on that one. It’s early in the year yet though and Dacre is so busy hurling abuse at his staff, he may not yet have picked up on this brand new trope.
When you have cancer, continuing stress and exacerbation of stress can seriously affect the progress of your treatment and also your disease.
Funnily enough, I don’t recall any oncologist telling me that being homeless whilst going through cancer treatment would be beneficial to me.
I think that within the process of decision making in the DWP and the process of interaction with JC+ clerks, one person’s experience of a condition is being played off against another. Simply because the assumption is there that everyone who claims is a fraudulent malingerer.
I’m happy to provide any evidence they ask for. You can, as I did, compile a wondrous and 100% relevant, up to date, collated, cross referenced evidence set, including reports from oncologists, consultant clinical psychologists, a surgeon and a GP along with a personal statement from myself and one from the one friend I have who helps me, send it in on time – and then the ATOS employed semi retired District Nurse who assessed the transfer from IB to ESA, may not bother to read it and just bung me in the WRAG without any thought other than hitting their target so as to avoid scrutiny from their superiors and making a decision that was outside the predicted normalcy.
The only correct fact in my ESA80 report from the assessing HCP was that I was not pregnant. Well no shit Sherlock.
You can be as polite and pleasant as you like (and should be) You can follow the DWP rules to the letter, you can have empathy for the smelly (yes reeking) advisor who hates their job and isn’t paid much, as she aggressively threatens you with sanctions in an open plan JC+ with thirty other claimants listening in (and still remain polite and assertive) for asking to rearrange a WFI to take place on the phone as you will be recovering from surgery and cannot travel.
You can do all of these things, but the DWP will always make mistakes. With the frequency of mistakes, the lack of will for the DWP to own up to them, make amends or even apologise, it does look deliberate. When you are in the middle of treatment, you may barely have the energy to fart, yet alone fight for yourself and the benefits you are legally entitled to.
So many people just don’t have the wherewithal to fight the maladministration and the tiger traps set up to make us fall down for good.
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I’m so very sorry about your health and the fact that the DWP are messing you about – they are doing this because they can. The CAB is over-run with clients as are most of the advocacy teams around the country.
Do you know if your council run an advocacy team? If so, can you become a client as these people are wonderful and do help you – and they also pressure the DWP as they have that power.
Can you get in touch with the MacMillan Charity – http://www.macmillan.org.uk/HowWeCanHelp/HowWeCanHelp.aspx as they too have a lot of power.
You can also contact your MP who will chase things up and will stand in your corner, as he/she is supposed to regardless of what party they are with as you are a member of their constituency.
I so hope that you get the help that you need and deserve. Keep your chin up and don’t let them win.
Jay
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Devil’s Advocate, the use of the abbreviation “DM” is quite telling. I personally know DMs who go hunting for ways to change the findings of ATOS because they can clearly see that the claimant isn’t fit for work, but they are stymied by the wording of the legislation.
Your response to Ollie is spot on, people like him like to live in their little conspiracy fantasy worlds with no actual grasp on the facts
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“The only think I have asked people to do here is to think before typing.”
Do you seriously think asking that will make any difference? You are not a fool, but perhaps I was to choose this name!
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The whole of your belief system is fatuous, incredulous and immoral as everyone on here has explained to you over and over again.
Go and tell your boss IDS to start paying for his own underwear instead of claiming for them on his expenses,( and yes there is proof that he did this),instead of telling the ill and dying they deserve no money because they are responsible for their illnesses, you really are a waste of time and energy so I will reply no further to an arrogant,pig headed, propagandist.
Clever my a***, cocky most certainly.
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I think that if it has caused any single person to think about it then that’s all I could ask for. It obviously has because people have agreed with me. Therefore, taken the time to read and understand my posts and come to their own conclusion about what is said.
Like most outspeakers, I do not only address those whom I reply to. For those people who read this article and then read the comments and were persuaded t research further before screaming AOL! on the comments… that’s the people I address. It’s the ones that haven’t posted fatuous remarks because they’ve either had their fire quenched early or because they realise they’d be shot down with ripostes of logic and reason. They’re the primary audience demographic.
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Huh?
How is the scientific method fatuous, incredulous an immoral?
I won’t respond to the well poisoning, or the personal attacks. You’ve built a straw man around me which you now believe is real. I cannot do anything about that.
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Its not dwp that make this decision. Its atos. Dwp do not make any medical decisions. Atos make all medical decisions and dwp follow their instruction. Its an important distinction.
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The letter doesn’t specify which condition they’re referring to, though the person who posted implies that it’s about his partner’s cancer. They could have something else, which they’re claiming has made them unfit for work and she’s claiming for that. Also,there are no details of what the partner’s action or inaction was ie treatment, substance, behaviour, non-attendance at an appointment. Need more information. However, this I’m sure I’ve seen this somewhere when reading about critical illness/disability payments by insurance companies. Appeals tribunal panels ask claimants if they’re tried to get better by attending clinics and taking medication too.
Has anyone got any more information, been asked about/or pressured into recovery/management programmes or to take medication, or seen any other letters like this?
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Dear me it is a sad symptom of society that so many people can be so thick and narrow minded. I am fed up of people blaming the rejection of their claims on Civil Servants. Admin Officers and Executive Officers do not set the rules or procedures that they have to follow. They have to check each claim form against the criteria for the benefit which has been claimed, they do not have the authority to ignore any aspects of the criteria. They are not “jobsworths”, they are people who are paid to do a job and if they decide to go against the rules because they feel sorry for a particular claimant, then at some time in the future this could be picked up by another staff member and the person who incorrectly received benefit could have received a large overpayment which they may have to pay back. Many people seem to hate Civil Servants, maybe they are jealous because government workers can have higher salary, better working conditions, and bigger pensions than workers in the private sector. So they tar them all with the same brush, they are all jobsworths etc. for goodness sake get a brain. I worked for the CS for 28 years and the vast majority of people I worked with worked very hard often in stressful situations; many of them did not like the procedures they had to follow and didn’t think they were fair to the claimants, but you have no power to change this. I was a renegade and I often tried to change things and I would challenge higher management about unfair procedures but I didn’t get anywhere and I harmed my own career prospects as a result of this. I cared about the claimants I had to deal with, especially those with particularly sad stories and I always did my best for them but at the end of the day the rules are the rules. Were there some staff members who weren’t so bothered about the claimants, yes there were some who just did the minimum work they could every day and didn’t emotionally engage, there are people like this in every workplace; in my experience these were in the minority. Right I am gonna finish here and I ain’t looking at this page again, I have no issue with some some of the people making comments but some of you need to go back to school and get a brain.
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People will believe what they wish to believe. For some people, change in that belief is impossible: the possibility of deep-seated conspiracy, derived for the sole pleasure of persecution of the powerless, is the only logical explanation, regardless of the evidence to the contrary, to a level where the only recourse against someone presenting a reasoned argument to the contrary, is character assassination and abuse. Such soles are too far gone and beyond reason. Personally, I pity such soles, as their lives must be demeaned to a level of complete hopelessness and distrust.
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Bogman, you are a brilliant and precious free spirit. I salute you and your efforts to protect the natural world.
We need more like you fella.
I hope you are getting good care and things improve for you soon
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Nonsense. The letter states that she will be receiving ESA, just the start date will be early December instead of mid November. Don’t know why everyone’s moaning about it
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Because somebody agrees (or disagrees) with you doesn’t necessarily mean they thought about what you said. In fact in my experience it very seldom does on discussion sites such as this. The far more likely explanation is that they have simply labelled you as friend or foe based on an isolated word or phrase, rather than the content of your argument. I have been labelled a communist and a Tory based on the same content!
If you ask some questions (and manage to get some answers) then very occasionally you may establish an understanding, but it’s far more likely that any questions will be perceived as an attack on their stance and you will simply receive a crass retaliation.
Once in a while you may find a real discussion in which either you or the other person begins to change their view as a result of what is said, but it’s vanishingly rare.
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d a
i am very sorry to hear that….i appreciate that one needs to understand the e and sa, process as fully as one can…which is constantly evolving MR et al…i hope that we all gain understanding on a daily basis….
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Guy Fawkes does this all the time, and curiously most of characterisation he irrationally ascribes to others seems to resemble his own pronouncements.
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Agreed in this case, but as has been mentioned by others, it raises the real moral and practical issue that apparently payment CAN be withheld if the DWP deems that the recipient has contributed to their own illness.
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Well what is new with the DWP and the government, the disabled, ill and elderly are the ones who are paying the price for these hypocrites, How can you blame a cancer patient for contributing to his/her disease. The only way one gets cancer is by bad luck and the other by the employer not heeding the health and safety guidelines. But then the employer is seen by the government as not being at fault, so the person themselves is to blame. Come on we know that ATOS is being paid £100,000,000 per year if not more to cross these unfortunate people off the sick and disable benefit but the MP’s are giving themselves pay rises of 11% but we the people are being told to cut back and prove we are unfit to work. But when we try to the ATOS board automatically puts 0 on every single criteria during the medical assessment. If the presiding medical examiner states otherwise it is overturned higher up the ladder, so we loose either way.
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Well… as a matter of fact most cancers (and many other diseases) ARE caused in small or large part by the chosen lifestyle of the patient. That doesn’t mean those people don’t deserve or need financial help from the state. You need to distinguish between these two different arguments.
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f f
1st part a bit too cut and dry for me, but i understand your point, well enough…
2nd part “You need to distinguish between these two different arguments.”, is so obviously where the action ought to be…to also we “think might help”…+ MR (mandatory reconsiderations)….
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Do you work for the DWP? Or JC+? Your response above is as insensitive as the reaction of the DWP.
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obb
I agree. The NHS doesn’t refuse to help people who might have contributed to their own poor health (yet?!), so nor should the DWP.
It seems that Labour introduced this and the Tories have continued it, and the LibDems won’t do anything. So what can we do about it, other than maybe start up a new country… which fortunately living in Scotland I can!
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P.S. The first part is simple medical fact. Tough luck if you don’t like it!
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I went to university with the girl in question, and the reason not enough NI has been paid is she only graduated a few years ago and so has not worked a full-time job long enough to generate a large amount of NI. And I can confirm that the claim is for a single illness, nothing further at all.
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Isn’t it interesting that people slam DWP and JCP for being insensitive, fatuous and uncaring; but when someone posts a compassionate, well reasoned, justified post, they are labelled as “working for the enemy”. How is this cognitive dissonance possible?
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Aww, Chelle-chelle form words. *claps* Chelle-chele clever girl! *pats you on the head*
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Finkfurst
You practice character assassination on me then run with my argument you dick.
You constantly contradict yourself in your tirades and theorizing or nit pick to the point of tedium, if you and devils advocate are not one, you should be.
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I can assure you that we are not. Fink is Scottish; I’m English. It is perfectly possible, and usually even welcomed to be able to hold differing opinions on the same person about different matters. Trust your enemys more than your friends for frankness; a Machiavellian principle that is very worthy of following. Just remember; only people who ask and answer questions can possibly learn. Ask as many questions as possible and take heed of the answers.
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The pair of you want to practice what you preach. I’m done with you right wing prats.
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Wow. Just, wow.
Well… there you have it people. There you have it.
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Well Mr. Advocate, it’s perhaps a compliment that you searched and then quoted me from another place. Do you agree with me, or are you taking the p*ss? I trust you to give me an honest answer…
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See my post at 7:24 pm…
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I don’t think you are “working for the enemy”. I just think you fail to understand what has happened here. The DWP and JCP are not simply insensitive, fatuous and uncaring, they are being paid to carry out their governmental orders to the letter, no matter how much havoc, pain and stress it causes. The appeal takes months and during that time people have to survive on nothing. Knowing this, many cannot afford to appeal. It surely speaks volumes that 50% of the appeals that are heard are granted. As a result tens of thousands of people have taken their own lives through stress, when the DWP and JCP make “human errors” as you call it. Though more realistically their errors are inhuman and meant to be so.
So don’t act so surprised and innocent when people get angry with you – you deserve it and more. Your words were not compassionate.
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Oh no, I do agree with you. Asking questions is one of the only ways we expand our own knowledge. I personally see any day in which I do not learn something new to be a bad day. Reasoning is a self-correcting mechanism; if we do not correct it and maintain it when new information is available then all we’re left with is selfishness and narcissism.
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I don’t think I could have given a more Liberal (Centre) argument than I have on this post. I can almost foresee the reflexive comebacks to this forming in your mind right now. But yeah, I agreed with Nick and still do. Apart from on Tuition Fees, which I was very much for the raise of. But that is a segway for another thread, maybe.
I support a lot of left wing ideals such as secularisation, the wall of separation, etc. To paraphrase a line from Downton Abbey; it is the government’s job to be utterly useless without its people. But, I am a realist. I understand enough to know there is far too much that I don’t know for me to be making wild claims from pseudointellectual guesswork. I can do research on fields well enough to converse with people in the know and then I ask questions. The answers to those questions form the basis of other questions I can ask to others in the know and the process continues.
To call me right wing is to have a total lack of understanding; either of what the wings stand for or what I stand for. Whichever side your ignorance fall on… ask questions.
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My 7 yr old grandson died from
This how can it be their fault
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It isn’t.
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Someone give devils advocate aka finkfurst an acting job, he is clamouring for attention and obviously has no life other than insulting people on bloggs.
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zerin
the whole question of blaming someone for any health conditions is ludicrous, let alone for cancer….they suffer it and that is that, removing benefits to promote healing is equally stupid…
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Ollie.
We all got the message that you are not a “soul man”. You.re not the jamie Ollie Oliver type of sole man are you?
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i’m afraid it’s the sign of this tory government, they really are the nasty party, if the libs wern’t with them it would be 10 times worse, god help all the sick and poor if the tory’s win the next election,god help all of us as a matter of fact.i’m sure they want workhouse’s to return, still live in that sort of mentality.
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obb – It is not ludicrous. Obviously a 7 year old child cannot be responsible for their own health, but an adult can. If you drive without a seat belt then you are responsible for your injuries if you have an accident. However, as I said before, that doesn’t mean you should not get help from the state. The NHS doesn’t refuse to help people who might have contributed to their own poor health, so nor should the DWP.
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f f
our point of agreement is where my passion is, so i’m content….i shall also vote yes, the overturned boat is easier to get to, for demos….
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Derek Mc Sorley
Devils advocate was replying to me not Ollie and I don’t know where you get your information from because atos plainly tell you that the decision to retain or refuse benefits lies with the DM at the DWP.
Isn’t it a coincidence that the abbreviation DM for decision maker is also the abbreviation for the Daily Mail, who clearly fuels what the decisions at the dwp should be.
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would your MS be Machiavelli Syndrome? or are you now trying to prove that those with incurable illnesses are still capable of working while playing the sympathy vote for yourself. Personally I wouldn’t believe a word you said.
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Multiple Sclerosis, you ignorant fuck.
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Some decision makers at the dwp are deliberately making errors and making overpayments to leave the claimants in debt and unable to repay as well as adjust to the reduced benefits without extreme hardship, but what the hell, Mz Morris and Co are only human and RULES are RULES, which they are happy to follow to the letter, any pretence to the contrary is make believe on their part, but don’t they justify the unjustifiable beautifully?
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Yes. It is a coincidence. Well, less so a coincidence and more just a product of a finite vocaulary that words end up starting with the same letters.
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obd
Don’t fall for his guff, finkfurst/devils advocate blows with the wind,playing good cop, bad cop. He does not think the welfare state should fund anybody, he argued that in previous posts.
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haha you are a complete and utter idiot I bet you fondle yourself over your hamster devils advocate go play somewhere else the government sucks only in it for themselves less money to people in uk more money for them to line there pockets …. even the mongo monkeys know that ya twat way and play with yourself
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*sighs*
And the pigeon chess has begun.
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Funny that, because my replies have been FinkFurst replies, where I have thrown back everything they uttered to me first, then gave my opinion of them, but obviously you cannot read.
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I know what MS stands for and your filthy mouth belies the real YOU,
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Really, well they blame each other then atos and the dwp.
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With you playing all parts.
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The rare type of cancer she has http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewing's_sarcoma is caused by something going wrong with chromosomes… Not something that is her fault at all…
For those that were questioning the person’s claim and NI. If you managed to spot a post by ‘MakeTeaNotWar’, they claimed to actually know the subject of this letter. I’ll copy and paste their comment:
“MakeTeaNotWar on January 11, 2014 at 8:33 pm
I went to university with the girl in question, and the reason not enough NI has been paid is she only graduated a few years ago and so has not worked a full-time job long enough to generate a large amount of NI. And I can confirm that the claim is for a single illness, nothing further at all.”
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Devils advocate & guy Fawkes,
You’re both ARSES!
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yea fukin cunts who the fuck they think they r?????? fuckin fashist bastads think they so fuckin clever wiv big fuckin wrds u nt fuckin clevr mate u fucked in the hed
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OMG i have just sat and read all these comments and boy you are so off the issue, this women has an illness that is no further her fault than flying in the air would be. Are you saying if you eat healthy and live healthy then you won’t get an illness wisen up you can be the most healthiest person on the planet and get cancer, MS and other sickening illnesses life is full of surprises and thats what happens. Nothing in life is a given thing. You could step outside and get knocked down by a bus for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. None of you are God and can not decide what happens in a persons life. This women is now being given ESA and rightly so for them to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control. The problem with this country picking on those that need the help is that so many who are fit to work sit on their fat arses and do nothing but take take and take. The wrong people are getting the help that is needed by so many others and the whole system needs changing
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I think you’re my new least favourite.
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I really don’t give a crap your rude and full of so much shit i can smell you from here
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Please elaborate.
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You sit and preach about things that you have no knowledge of has anyone in your family had cancer or are they all so perfect like you think you are
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Yes, people close to me have been through it. I do not claim absolute knowledge and never have done. I do, however have enough critical evaluation and learning skills to gain an understanding enough for the purposes of conversation. I have never claimed to think I am perfect. On the contrary, I have already touched on the fact I have MS. But, I do not wish to digress into Red Herrings. Again, you’ve drawn Hasty Generalisations and built your own Straw Man to tear down. It’s nothing new. It’s pigeon chess and it’s tedious to sit through.
Grow up!
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I don’t need to grow up i think you are looking in a mirror and seeing yourself on that score, you act as though people ask for diseases through their lifestyle and yet you say in the next comment you have MS. DID YOU ASK FOR THAT TO HAPPEN TO YOU!! is your lifestyle so shit that you got this disease through your own misfortunes no you didn’t it happened and you now have to live with that. My grandmother was the healthiest person i knew, she didn’t drink, smoke and ate healthy and yet she died of a brain tumour age 55 years did she ask for that no she didn’t.
Next time you post please read everything that is put to you as you contradict yourself so many times that you need to learn english again, i can just be thankful that my schooling was a good thing
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Could you please point to anywhere during this entire article where I have said that Miss Buckley chose to have cancer, or deserves it, or that it is her fault?
Can you then point to places where I have supported her case and stated that I sympathise with her situation?
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Example
We haven’t been given all of the details here. If she was a chain smoking alcoholic who refused chemotheropy and hadn’t notified the DWP for months, would your comments be so vindicating against the decision? She could be, we have no idea. Her boyfriend certainly wouldn’t share that much info in a “FURIOUS” comment online.
To reach a decision such as this, she would have had to have had Limited Capability for Work, through her own misconduct; fail to attend or submit to medical treatment which could help her; smoke, drink or eat to excess with no plan for cessation; changed her living circumstances without notification or fail to notify them of her condition.
If it’s none of the above then a mistake has been made and it should be resolved as soon as possible. Mistakes happen.
Yes in the beginning you said it wasn’t her fault but as you go through your comments this is what you start to post
Again contradiction of yourself through and through
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Unfortunately there is no edit button on here. If so, I would have added “failed to conform to the rules of behavious perscribed for her condition by her associated medical consultant”. I did amend this in a later post.
However, that aside, what I did there was paraphrase and summarise the guidelines that were followed during the automated process she went through. I finished by saying that if it wasn’t anything like that then a mistake has been made and an appeal should be set in place.
At no point did I assign blame or fault. Neither was there any contradiction in what I said, if you read it in context.
Are there any other examples you could give that you think show me assigning blame or fault? And, you also haven’t made any attempt at the second part of my chellenge.
Clue: The second part is the possible part. Start there.
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You still obviously can’t read english maybe i should try a different language. In my reply i stated that at the start you did say it wasn’t her fault i have only seen one comment to that then you start turning nasty because you don’t like what other people are saying. I feel for you really i do you are one of those people that unless people are agreeing with you then they are the ones at fault. My comment at the start of all this was true and fact, your comment underneath was rude and sad
I don’t have time to play silly mind games i have a life to which i enjoy what time i have left
Goodbye
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But your comment was demonstrably false. I’m not one of “those” people if I’m honest.
Three questions that I genuinely interested in learning the answers to are:
* Do you think credulity is a good thing? If so, why?
* Where should be burden of proof be placed? (i.e. Where shoud the default position lie?)
* Where do you think our right to freedom of expression should end?
These are honest, genuine questions I would like to ask you. At the moment, as I’ve eluded to, my values lie in the scientific method. I trust skepticism and evidence and the self-correcting mechanisms of reasoning. If I am wrong about this and I have it all backwards then I’d genuinely like to know. There’s no ad hominem here, mere curiousity and slight trepidation.
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Excuse me who made you God that you can state my comment was false, people are sitting on their asses getting everything handed to them on a plate, while others that are genuinely in need of the help get turned down. This country sucks when it comes to helping people, and they moan that people aren’t going out to work why the hell should they when they can GET and DO GET benefits handed to them and all they have to do is sign on. Maybe you are one of those people so you will disagree with everything that other people are saying. YOU do not know me and what i go through day in day out and unlike you i will not SHARE to get sympathy. As to your questions silly man i have already told you i have better things to do than sit here answering your stupid questions and bowing to your NEEDS TO BE RIGHT AND ON TOP
Your pathetic now again
GOODBYE just in case you missed it the first time
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I have never claimed to be Joe Peschi or anyof the other thousands of gods through history. Do you understand the word “demonstrably”? I can state that some of your comment were false because it is demonstrable.
You said in your first post: ” This women is now being given ESA and rightly so for them to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control.”
Could you elaborate on this please? It seems like you are eluding to a judgement of Miss Buckley without knowing her or anything about her. You even seem to place blame on her, sying she is way out of control.
You then change the target of your ad hominem attacks towards me and say that I have placed blame on her. When challenged, you produce a fatuous argument which was rebutted and then launch into another round of well poisoning, ad hominem and finally settle on personal attacks. You have produced a myriad of logical fallacies and have ignored my attempts at reconciliation through two-way conversation.
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Flipping hell man your english is pathetic is it your first language or are you one of many that come to this country and take over!!!!. I said that she is now being given ESA and Rightly so that they are the ones to judge her on her lifestyle. Really get a new pair of glasses or keep your mouth shut you can’t read and a typical man thing read what you want then start to act as though you are GOD
Grow up you sad pathetic man
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copied
This women is now being given ESA and rightly so for them to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control. The problem with this country picking on those that need the help is that
Where does it say i am blaming her stupid!!!!
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I am demonstrably not a god. For one, I exist. I am Antitheist, not Egodeist. I am, however, beginning to understand why questions about reasoning, critical thinking, skepticism, rationality, logic, the burden of proof, faith, freedom of expression and the scietific method may seem threatening to you; why you could never actually give an answer to the questions I asked you.
I’m also beginning to wonder whether or not you’re a Poe. Can you really be this idiotic with this?
You stopped explaining right before you were going to justify saying “her lifestyle is way out of control.” Could you please do so?
When you read the line “This women is now being given ESA and rightly so for them to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control.” it does elude to blame being placed.
You go on to say “The problem with this country picking on those that need the help is that so many who are fit to work sit on their fat arses and do nothing but take take and take. The wrong people are getting the help that is needed by so many others and the whole system needs changing”
This, to anyone other than yourself, when read directly after the preceding line, links back to that line and carries on from it. This is what I was asking you to clear up. I said, if you read my comment again, that it seems like you are placing blame. I never claimed absolute. I made no truth claims other than it seems that you eluded to her being to blame; backing up your claim with a broader statement about the poor state of the system and the country as a whole.
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What no answer to that point being you’ve been proved wrong
You started this with your rude comment when there was no need for it, reconcilliation yeah as long as i agree with you which i don’t
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Excuse me you are so flipping rude and obviously can’t read english for what it is, When learning english in school a full stop means you are starting a new sentance this is what i did so how apart from you can anyone get it wrong. You have been rude to so many people through out this whole thread, you act as though you know it all when i fact you don’t. As for a Poe please elaborate as to what this is. And i see you can’t answer plain english questions and wow being an athesist give yourself a pat on the back for your big ego
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“This women is now being given ESA and rightly so for THEM to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control.” it does elude to blame being placed.
How does this elude to blame being placed at her when did she become THEM
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Poe’s Law states:
”Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humour, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”
It may have failed to reach your attention, but your comment “This women is now being given ESA and rightly so for them to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control.” is one whole sentence with no punctuation other than the final full stop. I also learned in school that paragraphs are what mentally change the subject in the reader’s mind, not a full stop. A full stop allows a mental pause. The subsequent sentence should – when writing straight narrative or prose – follow logically on from the preceding. To whit, the only indication to the reader of how that sentence should be take in context is by evaluating it against the preceding and subsequent sentences.
You still don’t understand my problem with this. I know what you mean with the first part and I agree with you there. It is up to the to judge her. What I cannot justify is the bit where you say “for her lifestyle is way out of control.” What have you used to determine this? Where is your evidence. You’ve made a truth claim so you have a burden of proof to follow.
I have never claimed to know everything. In fact, I have repeatedly rebutted claims from other people to that end. I know I do not know everything. Unless you’re talking of some philosophy of “Knowledge is the sum of our personal understanding” or some form of solipsism that states we can never truely know anything outside of our own mind or a Platonist attitude that states that learning is merely unlocking the potential of our minds, allowing us to fathom things we have known all along. But I would never claim absolute knowledge. Outside of the logical absolutes, descriptive laws and esoteric labels, I do not believe that absolute knowedge of anything is certain.
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We’re getting nowhere with this. Could you possible rephrase the line in a better way. A way in which it is obvious where your opinions lie on the matter?
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I think you are the poe not me, again rude and not needed. I missed out the comma in my comment and couldn’t undo it coz there is no edit button your excuse to that too the only difference being this women is not THEM and no blame has be put on her read the whole thing again and take it in this time and stop going over the same thing when you obviously can’t get it even when written down in ENGLISH. The WHOLE sentence read that this women is being give ESA and rightly so, for THEM to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control, read it over and over again and you will them maybe get what is as plain as the nose on your face. You were RUDE to me and for that you are a loser and a POE get a grip of the facts before putting any rude comment down.
Maybe you should read all your comment through out this thread then you will see that you are the one with the problem not me. And as for that twat Lee he is an imbecile that needs to learn proper English and when i posted my comment i did NOT reply to his comment i started one of my own. I have had friends read my comment and funnily enough they can understand what i am saying, and agree that you are rude and an imbecile too.
The difference is that they won’t put it down in writing because they know i can and WILL stand up for myself to ignorant people like you
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Posting again in plain English so that idiots like Devil’s Advocate can understand it
OMG i have just sat and read all these comments and boy you are so off the issue, this women has an illness that is no further her fault than flying in the air would be. Are you saying if you eat healthy and live healthy then you won’t get an illness wisen up you can be the most healthiest person on the planet and get cancer, MS and other sickening illnesses life is full of surprises and thats what happens. Nothing in life is a given thing. You could step outside and get knocked down by a bus for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. None of you are God and can not decide what happens in a persons life. This women is now being given ESA and rightly so, for THEM (DWP) to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control.
The problem with this country picking on those that need the help is that so many who are fit to work sit on their fat arses and do nothing but take take and take. The wrong people are getting the help that is needed by so many others and the whole system needs changing
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Ok. Thank you for your clarification. The addition of correct punctuation to form a valid English sentence helped greatly. Maybe this will help you see my confusion:
“This women is now being given ESA; and rightly so for THEM to judge her, for her lifestyle is way out of control.”
“This women is now being given ESA and rightly so. For THEM to judge her for her lifestyle is way out of control.”
The top is how I read it, the bottom is how it was meant. Without punctuation, you inadvertently switched the subjects within the sentence structure, adding confusion to the meaning of the sentence. It could be read either way. Again, thank you for your clarification.
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Thats because your as thick as pigshit
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At the end of all this i expect an apology i didn’t deserve your RUDE and inappropriate comment to which i will still state you are rude and an imbecile
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You want me to apologise to you? Will I recieve one in return for the tirade of verbal abuse which you’ve hurled at me?
An olive branch.
I am sorry that I was confused by your lack of punctuation, which in turn led to me reading the sentence in a different context than it was meant. I understand that you meant the opposite of what your post originally eluded towards upon first read. Once you explained that punctuation was missing and replaced it in the correct place, I understood exactly what you meant. I am sorry that my use of internet memes such as “Poe” were unfamiliar to you; if I had realised you did not understand their meaning, I would not have posted the observation.
Please accept my humble and unreserved apologies and I can only hope that I will recieve apology and recognition in kind for wrong-doings against me, by you. I can hope you will see your err in your personal attacks against me and repent as I have just atoned.
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Sharon, you’re an idiot. Your English is terrible. I find it hysterical that you claim an individual does not know English when you lack basic skills in the craft. Your punctuation is all over the place, or wrong and lacking. I suggest you go back to school!
P.S DA and the Fink gent are correct. Lots of knee jerk reactions without considering all the facts. Hilarious yet saddening at the same time. Thankfully it is only the internet and I have faith that the majority of the voting public have brains.
Oh and Sharon, for someone that said they are not going to post further you have continued to post 6 more times. It would seem you suffer from last word syndrome. Here I will show you how to do it correctly.
I won’t post again in this thread. Bye.
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I apologies to you Devil’s Advocate for you not getting the meaning of my written words for that i should never of jumped off the boat but i saw your rude comment and saw red at the same time. I think now that the comment has been rectified we will leave it and other idiots to it
Once again sorry for any confusion
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shaz u bitch i no engish fine fank u!!!!! who tha fuck u think u r u cunt??? ur as bad as that devil guy. y nt u2 just fuck n get it ova wiv itz obv u wnt2
fuckin bitch
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I accept your heartfelt repetance.
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Oh look a moocher
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Your very welcome and Lee get a grip ffs its supposed to be about this women getting screwed by DWP not personal attacks on sane people and errm whoever isn’t going to post again, i don’t speak english i am SCOTTISH thank you very much
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*facepalm*
*reads again*
*headdesk*
And with that little gem, I bid thee goodnight.
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Re: taking the p*** out of someone’s (lack of punctuation) punctuation.
That’s a whole heap of class privilege, education privilege and ‘able’/’enabled’ privilege you are speaking from.
You have written posts where you criticise people for ad hominems, so I know you know better. I’m calling you out for directly acting in ways that reinforce structural inequalities. Cut it out.
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Attempt to claim ESA for a few years, I can assure you, many of the beliefs you have been presenting here will change during that time through your experience and your discussions with others in similar circumstances.
If you are looking for evidence, the tribunal records are public. I think it is very telling that so many tribunals find in the claimants favour. There are numerous reputable newspapers which present interviews with those who have been denied ESA, those newspapers would need either affitdavits or access to the case notes concerning the cases.
This isn’t about memes. This is about reading the thousands of pages of evidence from court records, through to former DWP/atos employees disclosures, through to leaked memos/letters/contracts, through to the evidence which follows the trails that lead from the WCA to Unum Provident when Unum wanted to break into the UK income insurance ‘market’ (but were prevented from doing so by well-researched benefit claimants who informed the various ombudsmen of conflicts of interests, monopolies and insider trading regs being broken).
You ask others for evidence, yet refuse to go looking for it yourself? Not very scholarly of you…. I say this as a trainee academic.
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Most cancers?
Many/most diseases?
If you are going to make such assertions that most cancers / many diseases are caused due to lifestyle factors, I would be interested in reading the evidence for this please.
If you’re talking about disease burden on a society that is one thing as we are looking at a handful of diseases which are highly prevalent; but if you are talking about the variation between different diseases and their individual aetiologies, that is another.
Regardless of whichever you meant, the human body and disease causation is a very complex area, for which direct causation frequently cannot be ascertained.
Could you please clarify or present evidence as to your reasoning?
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>>> I am demonstrably not a god. For one, I exist. I am Antitheist, not Egodeist. I am, however, beginning to understand why questions about reasoning, critical thinking, skepticism, rationality, logic, the burden of proof, faith, freedom of expression and the scietific method may seem threatening to you; why you could never actually give an answer to the questions I asked you. <<<
Five quid says you're a philosophy student though.
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Devil’s Advocate – please stop abusing the phrase “ad hominem”. I wouldn’t normally bother to point it out, but since you say you like to learn and correct yourself, I’m giving you a chance here. An ad hominem fallacy involves dismissing an argument because of the person (“you are a horrible person therefore what you are saying is wrong”). I believe every instance where you’ve said “ad hominem” in this thread, you’ve meant simply “insult” (“you are a horrible person”), though there may be an exceptional case. It’s also not ad hominem to say “what you are saying is wrong, therefore you are a horrible person” – I’m not sure if there’s a term for that, but if there is, it isn’t ad hominem.
(I’m not calling you a horrible person, I’m just using that phrase as an example to clarify the distinction between ad hominem fallacies and simple insults.)
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Finkfurst
In fact research that has been done into environmental and lifestyle factors contribution to cancer rates has found that only around 40% of cancers are attributable to such factors.
You may find this issue of British Journal of Cancer helpful:
http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v105/n2s/index.html
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Pingback: Doctors – watching too much poverty porn can make you blind | Pride's Purge
Don’t respond to Devil’s Advocate-He/she/it is simply trying to distract from the main point of this article.
This is a heartless and rotten decision taken by the DWP-It is also clearly illogical.
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Well, if we can all put aside grammatical correctness for a moment, I sorta see it like this….you can approach something as logically and rationally as you like, use the scientific model, explain the letter away as an error of the system and generally, throughout the entire contribution of comments posted, completely and utterly lose the point and forget that a real human being, with real human emotions, with a very real disease that she did not contribute to causing, received this letter and would have had a very real EMOTIONAL response. Humanity has gone out the window, demonstrable in most of these comments, the society in which we live and the systems that are in place to protect the most vulnerable members amongst us. But please, do carry on with your game playing and sparring. Feel free to find as many grammatical errors in this post as you like, I’m sure they abound aplenty. And 10/10 to most of you for being nothing short of the most exemplary demonstrations of what it means to have been brought up in the west, i.e, couldn’t give a shit about anyone else as long as I can have some fun and I’m okay.
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Miss Pixie, Luoise
Your objections are simply splitting hairs and doesn’t address the real issue, but as you’ve raised them:
1) That BJC issue looked only at the UK. Worldwide data are far worse.
2) The cited study in fact gives figures of 43% of new cancers and 50% of cancer deaths, with skin melanoma apparently excluded. This will therefore give a number of greater than 50% of cancer deaths, i.e. the majority. Other studies (older and/or non-UK) have given a much larger proportion, but this may also reflect the trend towards such cancers being in decline, in large part due to a reduction in smoking levels in some countries.
3) As for other diseases, I said MANY are caused by lifestyle. That is correct and I’m sure I don’t need to start listing them for you… or perhaps I will – how about the first being heart disease due to lack of exercise from sitting at a computer for too long!!!
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DWP has caused tens of thousands of people to take their own lives! Why don’t you try and give a reasoned response to a reasoned argument, instead of resorting to amature dramatics. And before you go off on me, no I don’t work for the enemy either!
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Devil’s Advocate – Where did you get the name of the woman in question?
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P.S. Louise – sorry for the typo!
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Devil’s Advocate – Have you considered why Guy Fawkes feels the need to amalgamate us into a single opponent, and also invent things we supposedly said?
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Guy Fawkes
Yes you’re right the government have a policy of only hiring evil assholes whose sole enjoyment in life is to stop others from getting what they’re due. It’s on the first line whenever they do a recruitment drive.
The people that you are arguing against are not saying that this case isn’t genuine simply that whomever made the decision has based it on a flawed policy, a policy that is necessarily strict because of the huge numbers of people who try to defraud the system. If you are to take your aggression out on anyone it should be the people who have caused the tightening up on policy in the first place and not those who are simply doing their job.
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Nope. Engineering.
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Thank you. I have tried to separate the ad hominem atacks from the personal attacks, but it’s difficult to point to individual responses amongst the slew. I was aware that I had probably called an insult ad hominem at ome point, but with no way of editing posts and the sheer volume of content, it was difficult.
There have been cases where they’ve said (paraphased) “you are a horible person therefore I am not listening to you”. I agree though, I did abuse the word and for that I’m sorry. 🙂
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From her Facebook page.
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Another one who doesn’t read what I was asking. It’s a very simple concept.
The burden of proof lies with the claimant. Why is this so difficult? If the burden of proof were shifted then the system would set everyone in the country as sick and then go about trying to proof that each individual is well.
That’s not how a burden of proof works.
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I can be an arse at times but only as a defence mechanism against arses like DA/FF.
If I was either of the those replying to you they would be nit picking about why you think they are an arse.
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Class privielege? What the actual fuck?
No dear, this isn’t class privilege. For one, it was a joke; as was reinforced within my subsequent post. It certainly has nothing to do with class. Isn’t it in fact classist to say that the great unwashed don’t know how to adorn their text?
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social engineering in favour of the rich.
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HandGrenade
“I will not post again in this thread, bye”, of course not, you will revert back to your alter ego’s of DA and FF who you praise to the hilt despite the fact that they want the last word with everyone.
FF does not belong the SNP in Scotland he belongs to the southern part of the Nasty party – SNP. He is a liar.
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there is a massive lawsuit if ever i saw one due the arse off the conservative government also goto the papers and news with this
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Sharon
He is deliberately bating you, if you don’t want to join in with his stupid games ignore him and carry on with what you know is the truth.
I know Devils Advocate is Fink Furst when he starts prattling on about the English language and punctuation hence his moniker FINK FURST taking the piss out of those who couldn’t give a stuff about how something is spelt.
Social media has the Esperanto language or is it ” from each according to his ability” as Walter Mitty and his alter ego’s would say. A first class Snob who has to print as many ” high falutin” words as possible to try and make him look a somebody – so sad.
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The NI contributions could be down to not working while raising children, a lot of women find themselves in this position as motherhood isn’t seen as a job….my wife is in this position & as things stand won’t receive a full state pension on retirement. Nice country we live in eh!
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Quite easily in the eyes of ATOS and the DWP. Being born with a non-visible disability; is one of the hardest things to get them to consider fairly. It has been proven time and again, that even with a visible disability (paraplegic, amputation, etc); you are more likely to get refused than to automatically get the help you require.
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I have but one thing to say , It is that ATOS does not give A TOSS ….. PERIOD .
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Ha Ha, very funny. How did you get to her Facebook page. If you don’t want to tell me then just say so, it’s not important.
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Her boyfriend posted an image on his fb page that went viral and was linked to within this article. She seems like a cool girl, we have fairly similar taste in a lot of things, we’vevisited a few of the same haunts. Very attractive as well. 🙂 Best of luck to her.
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FinkFurst
Tom’s blog post has a link to the Facebook page of the man who made the original post.
From there it’s easy to find the FB page of his girlfriend – the person who received the letter.
I did it myself when checking the authenticity of the post
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Louise – I don’t really use Facebook, so I’m not sure how you found his girlfriend’s name from the link Tom gave. Could you take a few moments to explain it to me? It may come in useful in the future. Thanks.
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Louise – Don’t worry, I just worked it out.
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Probably not, because the only provable loss appears to be about 2 weeks of benefits. Hardly worth going to court for!
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I wonder if the government consider smokers and/or ex-smokers as having “contributed” to ANY cancer condition. Since there isn’t a direct 1:1 link proven, I suspect such a consideration would be unfounded and plain prejudiced. 😦
Also reading a few of the comments, it looks like this one specifically is a genetic condition and therefore there’s a 0% chance she could have caused it herself.
Shame on the government and the specific department for recruiting idiots. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but this is a biggy! Too big to ignore. Too big for someone in that position. The only acceptable mistake in these types of letters would be a typo.
Wishing all the best at the appeal and hope it goes on the news.
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Agreed. But as has been mentioned before, this also raises the real moral and practical issue that apparently payment CAN be withheld if the DWP deems that the recipient has contributed to their own illness. Maybe it was a mistake in this case, but no doubt in many others it was not and has caused substantial hardship.
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Having smoked for 15 and only finally quitting this year, if I developed Lung Cancer, I would expect the fact I was a smoker to be considered a factor in almost every medical decision I had to go through. There doesn’t have to be a 1:1 correlation. We do not work in a world of absolutes.
Once again, the letter does not state that she caused it. The only people who have leant towards her causing her illness are the ones using that line as a straw man. Considering no-one actually wrote the letter, it is difficult to place the blame for the error on any one head. Maybe the people who made the alogrithm to automatically generate letters was wrong. That’s not really important though. If it is that a mistake was made, the appeal process is there to help her; and good luck to her. 🙂
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Coincidentally, there is an Executive Director at the DWP also called Katie Buckley.
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Why hasn’t this lady gone to the press? TV? campaign groups? etc
The gov have gone too far and they need to be exposed at every opportunity
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Mainly because, if you read the anecdotal evidence which we do have to hand; it’s really not that big of a deal. The only ting going to the press would do is make the Straw Man grow, further hiding any underlying problems.
The letter states that she has not paid/had paid for her enough NI contributions. This could be that she was unemployed but not claiming JSA/equivilent. I had the same problem and had to catch up with NI stamps before claiming. It’s no big deal really. The language they use does confuse matters, but the appeal process is there to help her. Best of luck to her with her appeal; I’ve had appeals that were sorted out in one phone call, other have taken a few weeks.
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I would stipulate that this case could be a lot more serious than that though. If so, I still wish her the best of luck; but, it’s her case, not ours. We don’t need to fan the flames,
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where does it mention lack of NI contributions???
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In fact no, and your doctors will almost certainly not even reproach you. If you get lung cancer then being an ex-smoker will probably not change your medical treatment much from someone who never smoked. However, you probably have substantially worse lung and arterial health than someone who has never smoked or who gave up sooner, so your outcome will be less favourable.
The important point is that although the NHS will treat you and the non-smoker with equal care, apparently the DWP will not!!!
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And I don’t think they should.
I spent 15 years rotting my lungs. Knowingly. It’s not like I didn’t understand that I was more suseptible to lung cancer and a myriad of other cancers to boot. If I get lung cancer I would expect it to be more difficult for me to gain funding from the DWP. Rightfully so. That’s my opinion on the matter anyway. Why should I recieve exactly the same treatment from DWP when I have knowingly and wantonly predisposed myself to lung disease?
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Robert,
In the letter. That’s the only source of information that anyone has about this case, to date; other than those who are directly affected by the case.
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The ‘compassionate, well reasoned, justified’ post was actually a post pointing out that due to welfare and social care being absorbed within a bureaucratic system, it is therefore becomes ‘uncaring’.
More, it was a post attempting to stifle indignation and anger at this internally uncaring system for distributing care, by suggesting no one individual is to blame. Which is where the comments concerning ‘working for the enemy’ come from – they are a response to being told to stop being angry, to stop wanting an uncaring system to be caring.
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“fatuous and asinine”
Silly and foolish. A double dose of more or less the same insult.
And yet, a silly statement isn’t necessarily false.
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http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/21/jobcentre-set-targets-benefit-sanctions
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Punctuation facilitates communication of ideas. It is not the be all and end all of communication. Focusing on it, rather than the content, suggests less of a desire to reach the truth or find common ground within a discussion, and more of a desire to irritate people, insult them and silence their points.
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Young man, I would be requesting my tuition fees back from the shoddy pseudo-university who are failing to tutor you in basic academic skills, like being able to determine a core argument from a few paragraphs, or independent research.
Which part of my statement was regarding burden of proof belong to X person or institution?
Of course the claimant has a certain amount of burden of proof (they are after all the one making the claim!), along with the doctors within whose care this claimant belongs.
If you had bothered to do even a small amount of research on this, you would find that individuals are bringing several files worth of evidence to the DWP at the time of handing in their ESA-50 questionnaire; they are cross-matching them to the descriptors and laws concerning their capabilities (or lack of them); and it matters not a jot how many medical professionals say the person is unable to work, as the DWP have still taken the Atos report as gospel. Thereby giving more weight to the opinion of one nurse/doctor/physio than they are giving to many consultants, professors and doctors of many years standing.
This is a systemic problem. One that is evidenced through the thousands of doctors, consultants and professors who are outraged that their evidence and words are not being heeded by the DWP; and the thousands of decisions tribunals find in a claimants favour.
The reason I am saying you missed the point of my post was that I was not talking about who has burden of proof. Claimants are meeting their requirements for burden of proof. There is a highly prevalent issue in that the evidence claimants are bringing is being ignored by the DWP, pointing to a *systemic* problem.
The mark of someone who has understood their academic training is not one who endeavours to dazzle with their vocabulary and the few argumentation tricks they learned in their first year of being an undergraduate; but rather one who is capable of independent research, who maturely applies their skills to a *body* of evidence, and one who recognises when they are out of their depth in terms of knowledge and experience… otherwise you are just engaging in a penis-measuring contest.
The people on this blog know a great deal more than you do about this subject: if they are not living it, then they have studied it for years (this is part of my academic work, at Cambridge University). If I was you, I would be listening, rather than being combative. Listen, and then go research for yourself.
A simple google search got me:
— This from the British Medical association:
http://bma.org.uk/news-views-analysis/news/2012/june/scrap-work-capability-assessment-doctors-demand
— This from the guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/aug/13/atos-doctors-improper-conduct-disability
— This from the guardian citing a statistic that 32 people died each week after having been found ‘fit for work’ by the DWP/Atos (between January and August 2011)
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/31/disabled-people-benefits-panorama
Google is your friend. Don’t be shy!
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These Tribunals have no power in law to force the DWP to repay monies owed. Medical records are ignored even those from Specialists and other medical health professionals from the NHS why is that? Records are seen twice once when they’re delivered then filed. The medical assessor doesn’t need any qualifications all they do is fill in the computerised system. They lie about people because if they allow more than 12/13% in a given time they will be reassessed as to their fitness to do the job. This government is wasting trillions on a system not meant to work. Its one and only goal is to stop paying benefits and once they get out of the Human Rights laws they will abdicate financial responsibility for anyone in need whether disabled, long term sick, unemployed etc. But they won’t say or do anything about the trillions owed to us increasing daily by companies in the UK – I’d like to know why there has to be something in it for them? Along side continuing to fund UK Armed Forces being made redundant, paying huge redundancy payments whilst they still spend billions on advertising for new recruits including sponsoring TV programmes – Why is that, I’d love to have another whistleblower on these issues any takers??
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Shelly.
It has been proven that there are not large numbers of people trying to defraud the benefits system even Lord Freud had to admit that recently.
There is more fiddling going on percentage wise with expenses for members of parliament and the house of lords expense claims, so why don’t you take your flawed reply to them because as a dwp worker you are wrong again.
If you think their policies are flawed then why do you follow them like sheep?
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The woman’s friend posted above that the Ewing’s was the only reason the claimant was making the claim.
There are specific criteria that the DWP/decision makers use to determine if someone has “contributed to their illness”, which does include failure to attend appointments (either medical or jobcentre plus), substance misuse where it is only the effects of the substance misuse being claimed for, and a few other things.
However, the prognosis for Ewing’s Sarcoma is poor in the majority of cases, with only a small percentage living more than 5 years even with treatment. This lady may have chosen to forego treatment side effects in favour of living her last years to the full. However, the DWP may have taken a contributory negligence attitude towards this decision.
Or it may be as simple as she failed to attend a work focussed interview. Ewing’s is not caused by substance misuse, so this aspect should not have been brought into the case.
Another poster, Hossylass, pointed out that with the new introduction of DWP ‘healthcare professionals’ giving out treatment advice to benefit claimants, there may be an increase in these cases where the DWP are citing contributory negligence (where the claimant refuses the advice given by the HCP, as the claimant recognises that it would not be of benefit to them, and in some cases make them worse — see the falsified data on graded exercise and ME, making graded exercise the standard treatment for ME/fibromyalgia patients nationwide).
This is the first case I have come across where the DWP are citing contributory negligence. So I wonder if this is either a new policy, or an outlier for some other reason. But it may be that I simply haven’t come across these cases also.
I have to admit, the letter is very badly worded.
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I don’t agree with you. If you get lung cancer and you become unable to work, I think you should receive exactly the same treatment from the DWP as somebody who has never smoked, or (like me) who gave up quite a few years ago. I have a little more difficulty with the question if the person concerned is still smoking, but probably the answer is the same.
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This looks like the sort of petition which would benefit from being run on change.org. A typical example of uncaring bureaucracy.
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FinkFurst,
The journal article cited by Louise said ‘lifestyle and environmental’ factors. Environmental can be everything from toxins in industrialised nations, to living too close to selafield, to people living in regions where tar sands productions or hydraulic fracturing is taking place, to people who came into contact with the rainbow herbicides during and after the indochina wars (either domestically or within the wars), etc.
If you have a study which divides environmental from lifestyle, I would actually like to see the data on this.
Furthermore, you did not state whether you were talking about illness burden upon a nation, or the variation between particular disease aetiology — this matters when discussing percentage causation, and matters greatly to medical sociologists studying these phenomena.
Lifestyle factors, when widespread, show that there is an issue within the culture, not the individuals.
As for your quip about spending too long in front of a computer causing heart disease (a jab at me?), I am a disabled woman, and I use a computer for work and social interaction as going out to any great extent is impossible… and no, my disabilities were not caused by lifestyle.
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Lots of wit and conjecture on this comment thread.
All I can really say is, this could be absolute rubbish; no actual details given in the image. However, as an adult I was diagnosed with aspergers, and as a teenager, severe ADHD and dyslexia, and yeah – even though I have forced myself to be my own sigil of self control and discipline, it is still very hard to function the way society tells me to – that’s on top of a whole mountain of psychological problems from a lifetime of nasty experiences, including PTSD and panic disorder, depression, I had a genuine suicide attempt when I was 15 etc. My two pence is that I am in a pretty extreme situation even now, and the DWP have continuously contravened any notion that there might be something wrong with me. ESA scored me 0/21 many times, PIP’s progenitor turned me down twice, and now i’m struggling with PIP – despite thorough medical records throughout my life.
I know people who push gall stones (is it gall?) a cm wide through their penis every week – they have jars full of them – who get turned down. There is definitely something afoot – and with the public stigma being generated recently about the idea of people on ‘benefits’, along with a whole host of glaringly obvious political undercurrents, without calling ‘conspiracy’ – it’s pretty obvious something is very very wrong.
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Again with the ‘enabled’ privilege, class privilege and educational privilege.
I hope your MS never reaches the point where cognition is an issue, or where you have to use speech to text software, or where you can only enter text using a device strapped to your head that can poke the keyboard. I hope you never develop cerebral palsy, or have a child with downs. I hope you never come to understand the things the rest of us on this blog know and understand.
Shame on you Devil’s Advocate. You *should* know better. You acted like a prize arsehole here, both to Chelle Montague, and to every other person who is disabled. If I had your details, I would be in a mind to contact your university to have you hauled in for placing it in disrepute with your (possibly illegal) discriminatory attitude and online bullying of someone who may be severely disabled, or otherwise not afforded the same privileges you have been.
And you wonder why people ask if you work for the enemy? Maybe it’s because you act like the worst daily mail writers do.
You disgust me with the above post. Shame on you.
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Reblogged this on Social Action.
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Kidney stones…. and you just put me off my dinner!
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Look at the website above to see how almost every part of government behaved negligent, abusive, stupid to destroy a family, abuse children and put them into further abuse and then hide behind their mate a judge who was quite happy to perjure his own court to cover up what they all did.
Do we get an award for being THE MOST ABUSED FAMILY IN BRITAIN ?
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Our dear chancellor george is the common breed of english thicko, not in touch with much of reality. He is the instrument for much of the current tory lack of awareness & commitment.
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Anybody else going through the ATOS shambles of a health assessment can ask for a copy of the assessment. Let’s get a few of those published on the internet. That should make people aware. My daughter was deemed fit to work because she wasn’t going to die within 6 months, was not incontinent & could lift a half litre of liquid above shoulder height. I ended up giving up my job so I could go to the job club interviews with her as she has a learning disability and cannot travel independently. Don’t worry, I made sure to claim the £50 a week carers allowance…… and we lived off cornflakes.
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After reading about the good for nothing waste of space that has fathered 22 kids and they ALL live off benefits!, this total unfairness makes me soooo angry. Why don’t ATOS clamp these spongers down?, instead of genuine claimants who deserve their benefits!. Ian Duncan Smith has the nerve to say he is a devout Catholic and can go to bed and sleep with a clear conscience!. What a blatant liar!.
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Despite submitting 2 general practitioner letters, (stating my son had been under their constant care with severe and prolonged infections, including bacterial meningitis) a letter from a Thoracic Consultant at a leading transplant hospital (stating my son was in end stage COPD – my son requires a lung transplant), a letter from his Consultant Immunologist (stating he had a rare immune disorder that leaves him unable to fight infection), and a mountain of literature explaining his condition and giving the reasons why he could not be employed (no one would employ him anyway). My son had his benefits withdrawn and was deemed fit to work. Grrrrrrr.
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I got deemed fit to work when I was 17-18 claiming Incapacity benefit, even though I have a progressive illness one which I have had since birth. I was in and out of hospital, under weight, I was contently confused, depressed (not clinically) and my arthritis was so bad some days I couldn’t even get up or down the stairs. I was at college at the time, and only getting DLA, which most the time went to my parents for board. I was having one of my good days on the day of the medical exam, even though you mostly cannot tell if I’m unwell unless you know me very well and I can have long/short runs where I am well and vice versa. This is the reason I had got refused, If I remember rightly it was about a year before income support was contacted by my social workers and things got sorted.
The problem with these medical assessments from what I can remember is they don’t ask the right questions for the individual’s illness/disability. They don’t cater for people who’s illness’s can vary from day to day or even week to week/month to month etc. Yes they want to catch out the people who aren’t entitled to help that is a very valid reason for doing these assessments. which doesn’t leave room for those of us who are entitled to the help, being refused because of these reasons and are struggling in life.
I am very sorry to hear that you and your daughter are struggling and you have had to quit your job because of this. Have you appealed the first decision?
I’m not sure if this will help, but when I was going through the same thing Barnardo’s the children’s charity helped me get back on the right track. I’m not sure if you have to be referred though it wouldn’t help to ask 🙂
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“well there you have it people, there you have it”. More playing to the gallery.
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If Chelle has any of those diabilities, illnesses or inflictions you mention – or anything similar which means that her ability to punctuate is nullified – then I apologise unreservedly for my response.
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This conclusion seems sicker than the patient herself! Along the lines of withdrawing all treatment for smokers and drinkers because they brought their illnesses on themselves! They clearly contributed to their state of health. I don’t think so!
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Having saved the image and blown it up there is a clear green box around the sentence just inside the red one, indicating a “cut and paste” job. Someone fishing for FB “Shares”?
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We should never forget that the Tory has always hated the welfare state and always will!
alas:
Blessed are the rich for they shall inherit what is left of the Earth when global catastrophe has wrought its inevitable havoc. Darwin would have identified bankers as the fittest to survive!
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The whole benefits situation is a nightmare. People who are genuinely in need get no help, while the bright devious ones know how to navigate the system. A man I have been trying to help was “under the care” of a local NHS team who were responsible for getting his benefits sorted. They didn’t, he was without benefits for 3 years, but the DWP say tough, it was the NHS responsibility to help him. I stepped in because they had let him down, but how many more people are not getting the help they need, and not having benefits awarded because the decisions are made by people with targets to meet and no clear compassion or understanding. The major part of the benefits budget is not DLA or ESA but relates to pensions and child care etc. Perhaps those people with private pensions who can exist quite happily without the state benefit should give up their state pension.
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Firstly, why would you be looking so hard for a reason to discredit this? Thousands of people are posting their atos/dwp nightmares, do you assume they’re all lying?
Secondly, the “green box” appears to be identical to the colour variation across that entire section of the letter. That section on dwp letters is tinted green.
If you think they can’t possibly be that evil, you’ve not had the experience many of us have.
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No, it was a jab at all the people who who spend too much time arguing impotently on sites such as this, and so it was aimed more at myself than anyone else in particular. Disabled or not, I’m sure you can find more healthy things to do than this!
As for the first part of your post, I still think it’s hair-splitting and misses the main issue, so I’m not going to spend time finding the references for you. If you feel it’s important then you can research if for yourself, and then I would welcome you coming back to prove me wrong. I’m always happy to admit my failures if they are proven to be so.
…and what is creates a culture, if not the individuals and their choices?
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Anything the rich SHOULD be giving up benefit wise is voluntary anything the poor are denied is mandatory.
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I agree completely!
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the DWP send out these letters with several confusing and random sentences like this. The trick is to play them at their own game and ask for an oral hearing (pun not intended in this case). Too many people take it on the chin and give up when they get these letters so the DWP wins. It’s a funnelling tactic to get people off sick benefit. I’ve been to enough tribunals with ESA to know this. My advice; don’t get mad.. get even and never give up if your case is strong enough.
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The fundamental idea of people contributing to there own illness and therefore shouldn’t get benefits does make sense, for example someone who it morbidly obese and doesn’t work should be expected to try to loose weight in order to continue receiving benefits, although cancer is very upsetting, someone with throat cancer should be expected to give up smoking for example in order to carry on getting benefits. If this is true then someone should fire the idiot who handled their claim- but I don’t think its fair to publish this as Cameron’s fault when the principle does makes sense. And to point out it’s not a matter of torry or labour the idiot who works for DWP is the one at fault.
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it’s nice to know lucy that my efforts in conservation are appreci
ated–can you consider protecting the Scottish wildcat, my survival inspiration, from likely extinction–my situation in Caithness is abnormal–this year will have gone from 24 to 64 in medical bloodsport revolving around misleading files kept on me in notorious unscientific schizophrenia label–veteran of the hidden world in nature–cancer worsened my position–some positive–others not–trapped in remote Caithness–as regards cancer argument in Mr Pride’s blog can I point out that those who abuse today’s cancer patients on any way could well be tomorrows cancer patients themselves given it is so common–they should think of that. I obviously know how horrible cancer is–one thing it did with me was to reduce me from 15 to 16 stone to around 7 stone at my worst–did other thinghs too. NO ONE MUST ABUSE CANCER CANCER OR OTHER PATIENTS IN ANY WAY–IT IS CRUEL–AND THE ABUSERS COULD BE NEXT FOR CANCER THEMSELVES.
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Points taken and accepted. I’ll ignore the insults in your post for the sake of conversation. My previous attempts to converse with people on here seemed to lead to them not understanding the concept of burden of proof at all, hence I was taking baby steps and talking about situations in general; in any environment. I have said many times here that the fault is with the system. I delibrately haven’t gone into detail because I’d be appealing to my own authority within my rebuttals and void my whole case. Within your reply, you did answer my question, so thank you. My question was designed to ascertain whether you understood the concept of burden of proof; as a few of the people here do not seem to. You gave a very adequate answer which then went on to explain where this boundary breaks down. The opposition is both using an astronomically high standard for their evidence and changing the rules to effectively add a “Not Innocent” verdict.
At this point, the individual cases you mention don’t matter. It doesn’t matter how many people die each week or for what reason. A flawed system like this does need changing and I’ve never denied that. My problem was with the people that scream bloody murder about this case when the only information given is part of a letter that serves as anecdotal evidence and an article title that has nothing to do with the contents of the letter in question. It’s as if people read the title of the article and skipped directly to the comments section to moan without reading it in context. Then, when someone says to stop and think about what is being said, things get heated. You stepped in here, replying to me during a conversation with someone who doesn’t understand the basic concepts of what we’ve been talking about. They gave up on the conversation and resorted to personal attack. A propos, I replied to your post in a rather more vindictive way than I should of done; for that, I apologise.
I am a final year Engineering UG, predicted a first with a current academic average of 85%. I am going on to do an MPhil/PhD by Research once I graduate. I have recently published my first paper and had my PG research proposal accepted. I am a member of two Learned Societies for Technology and Engineering. None of this am I using to claim an authority here, I just wanted to correct some of your assertions. My ability to reseach here was also brought into question, however, as I have explained, you took my question out of context because of a mistake on my own part while replying to multiple people.
With a systemic problem that goes so deep, as this does; what would you think is the best way to heal it? It needs cutting out at the core, but the system needs to work without fail while it’s being gutted from within. At first, when I saw UC, I thought that may be able to solve problems, but it seems to be consolidating the problems into one handy monthy lump. Realistically, we cannot have the ideal system; one in which cases are dealt with on a truely case by case basis, relativistically and by a dedicated case worker. Is a relativistic system eve the best approach? Do we need an objective standard to work to, as is the case, as flawed as it is, now? If we have that objective standard, how black and white to we keep the edges? How much emphasis on the spirit of the standards do we put, compared to the letter of the standard? Too much towards the spirit and you end up with a strange amalgamation of relativistic and objective. It’s very difficult to get a fair and just system that simply works.
In this scenario, we haven’t even taken into account those who will try to play the system. There has to be a mechanism in place by which we can catch as many of the fraudsters as possible. Part of the solution for this is Social Engineering Awareness training for case workers. I do have a list of realistic things that I think would make the system better, but on their own, they won’t do anything. Whatever the system in place, it will be made more difficult by the populus demading more from both sides. There is a collective cognitive dissonance that says the system needs to be tougher and easier; more fair and more ruthless. There is a balance that must be kept, however the system is enacted.
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It may get even worse than you could imagine…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/nhs/10562382/Fears-for-the-elderly-under-new-NHS-drugs-policy.html
Just the very fact that this is being discussed should send a shiver through everyone.
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Helen – That’s the way I used to think too. But supposing a claimant simply refuses give up smoking or lose weight – would you be prepared to see them and their children become homeless or starve? This isn’t as simple as you seem to think, and all the options cost money which we don’t have!
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Very large numbers of seriously ill people probably DID contribute to their poor health to a greater or lesser extent. But does that mean they should simply be abandoned and left to fend for themselves?
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f f
i agree, and add, most people have no idea of the realities of the benefits system and being in need by cause of sickness and disability, trying to get justice from an ever evolving system whilst suffering profound lack of energy and very short of economic energy to boot, to move around to get all of the required admin dome so benefits restored, other bits of life have to be done as well!….there are many causes of obesity for instance, malnutrition being one, diabetes2 another, which i suffer.,the list goes on….yes there is apparent logic on the surface but once one is directly involved, logic quickly disappears down the rabbit hole never to be seen again. one has to be constantly thinking ahead, and find the route of least resistance this is draining, but not as draining as when benefit things are suddenly thrown at one, life with little, or without, income is dire….benefits are supposed to give support, not make things worse as removing income so obviously does…i like the song “there’s a hole in my bucket”… http://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/735/ http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/esasos.html
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I appreciate what your saying Finkfurst, but if the claimant simply refuses give up smoking or lose weight – its a question whether they are prepared to see themselves and their children become homeless or starve, or indeed in care. I have learnt that its not how much money you have its how you use it, and i’m not speaking out of ignorance, I grew up in a council state with a mentally and physically disabled mother on benefits. I then spent some of my adult life as her carer. There are things their to help, yes it’s not a lot, but its enough. We’re asking the government to try to be fair and look at us as individuals and each case, but at the same they need to address the situation as a whole. Each person should ask themselves what would I do in a position of power considering all the factors? Is it fair that someone who has built their business from the ground up to pay through the nose to support people who could be doing more for themselves or the community, society or country that they live in.
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overburdenddonkey, its not justice to claim benefits, its not a god given right, it’s something that the government did after the second world war to help people in poverty, the job climate is seriously bad I know, but all you have to do is show willingness to work, and although this is difficult with disabilities there is a lot of help in the form of social services, CAB and government work programs, not to mention charities such as ageuk – and to be fair there wouldn’t be a need for as much paperwork if it wasn’t so commonly abused. Surly the annoyance of forms is an acceptable trade for money and to sift out people who are committing fraud.
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Helen – So it your answer to my question yes or no? It sounds like a yes…….
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helen
i never said it was justice to claim benefits…human rights to vitals is god given right…being sick and disabled means profound lack of energy compared to fit and able bodied person….i was born shortly after ww2….
that was then this is now..things have dramatically changed, and become much worse…benefit fraud has never been high..it runs at 0.7%, more is lost through admin errors and £12bn + pa goes unclaimed…the pensions bill massively exceeds esa/jsa payments….their are few available jobs, the Work Programme is less effective than doing nothing….annoyance, no draining i said….your view seems to be work or go without….
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OBD,
I disagree that anyone has inalienable rights. All our rights are alienable, even our right to life. It is society that gives people their rights; the zeitgeist determines which rights supersede others. We hold those rights close to our chests and rightfully so; but, none of them are inalienable.
I’ve always been in two minds when it comes to issues like this. On one hand, the idealist in me wants a fair and just, merciful system that pitys the weak and punishes the opportunists. On the other hand, the pragmatist in me slaps me round the face and screams “COGNITIVE DISSONANCE” down my ears. Mercy, in situations like this is a suspension of justice; it treats people relativistically when the system itself remains objective. I can’t see any way it can be that way.
I’d be interested in people’s opinions on whether a relativistic system or an objective system would result in a “better” system all round. I leave it up to suseequent posters to define their definition of “better”. It could vary greatly depending on peoples view points.
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Sorry, I should slaborate there. I just read the first couple of lines and thought, hang on…
Rights such as our right to life are not given by society, obviously. Our right to life is with us from birth. As are other basic, involuntary rights. But, they’re not inalienable. Once you start talking even as basic as “Basic Human Rights”; they are given by society.
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D A
i guess it is a system that does not imprison physiology….
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d a
yes i was specific, so at what point do you think these rights should be removed from us….? also who decides this? me i’m just a simple engineer…Cog Diss Theory sucks…inuit have many names for types of snow, why is this….i mean, should our culture define us or we it….it is up to us to fight for what we believe to be truth…
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As an analogy, I believe that my right to swing my fist finishes exactly at the tip of your nose. At that point, you haven’t taken away my right to swing further; it dissipates because it encroaches upon your right not to be punched in the face.
I believe that the zeitgeist is defined by the previous generation. Or, at least it traditionally has been. It’s a self refining process in which we keep the good and change the bad. Sometimes it ends up worse, so the next generation refines it further. Once the age has past, the culture tends to define the people in our memories. We talk about the Victorian age or the Thatcher years, etc; the legacies of the zeigeist at that time define how we remember it.
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DWP said due to arthritis & other problems they couldn’t find me any employment therefore they scheduled my next appointment for 18 months, now after a year they’ve cut my benefit by £15 per week and inferring that I got arthritis on purpose and
should get work, being over 50 and about 2 steps out of a wheelchair I wouldmlove to return to work but nobody wants to employ someone who struggles to walk / breathe / can’t stand for long but can’t sit for long either. DWP please find me employment I’m happy to work (next time though please don’t refer me for a HGV driving position)
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d a
my challenge to you therefore is to have faith in your birthright and act this out until you no longer have to, therefore comfortable enough to see it as truth, that we are all born lovable, sociable, cooperative, and non-violent….and anything else is in dissonance with this basic truth….
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Lucy
You are so enlightened about the machinations of government and errors by DWP.
Nobody has touched on the errors made by the medical profession when diagnosing some cancers, some after smears have been told they don’t have cancer when they have not and others that they don’t when they have.
The chemotherapy and radiotherapy some needlessly have because of errors in misdiagnosis of some cancers, lowers the immune system and can sometimes kill patients who never had cancer in the first place.
I’m sure they’re diagnosing is so prolific, partly because of the charity work cancer sufferers and their families perform raising vast amounts for the NHS, not to mention NHS lotteries. We don’t hear of people running for those on welfare and to increase the coffers for those on sickness or disability benefits.
I think there is definitely more to all of this than meets the eye and not enough is spent on patients within the NHS or claimants within the welfare system, it’s being wasted on middle class tory voters in useless workfare schemes,top civil servants in the dwp and greedy GP’s, managers and consultants within the NHS.
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Johnny
It seems you will have to wait to see what the ZEITGEIST decide your fate should be regarding you receiving benefits.
Why DA uses a germanic word instead of the English one i.e. intellectuals is beyond me, maybe’s he’s a Nazi sympathizer.
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Faith is not a virtue. I do not use faith in any area of my life. Faith is the excuse we give to keep believing things which we do not have good reasons to believe. It’s a bad thing. Faith is synonymous with credulity. It’s gullibility. We’re not all born lovable, sociable, cooperative and non-violent. Sociopaths and psychopaths, for example, don’t fit in with that.
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da
i’ll leave at that for me, but what is that spark, that gut reaction, that we call intuition (knee jerk it you like)……
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A knee-jerk reaction is a phrase that means reacting to something before taking the time to understand it. Named after the reflex action in the knee; it’s said that the impulses don’t ever actually reach the brain, but the knee still jerks.
Intuition is different. That’s what we first think about a situation. It’s an evolutionary safety mechanism that has helped us to survive as a species. Like inference, intuition has it’s faults. If the evidence we have to work with is not good evidence, our intuition, and therefore, the resulting inference, will be flawed.
I’m not an authority on this, but that’s the basics of it.
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Guy – Have you decided that Devil’s Advocate and I are not the same person after all?
P.S. It’s about time you realised that Nazis were and are to be found in many countries, not just Germany. Your bigotry is showing again!
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“I believe that my right to swing my fist finishes exactly at the tip of your nose”
No, you’re wrong, and I don’t think I need to explain why. I suggest that you don’t try try to take your analogy into real life. If it doesn’t work there, then what use is it?
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FinkFurst
I’m convinced you are one and the same, no two people could be so overtly, semantically, showy, yet really explain nothing at all.
Perhaps we should ignore so called intellectuals because they have done more harm than good throughout the ages.
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PS FinkFurst your moniker insulting those that find it difficult to spell shows how bigoted you are and your alter ego DA is happy to discriminate against those that need medical attention whether they have contributed to it or not.
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If you’re telling me the truth then you are bizarrely deluded. If not then you are a liar. Only you can know which.
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It’s a deliberately provocative tongue-in-cheek reference to the American term “Fink”, where I first started using it. Maybe you should try asking a question once in a while. Perhaps you might start to learn something… but I doubt it
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“Perhaps we should ignore so called intellectuals because they have done more harm than good throughout the ages.”
… you REALLY DO give away your delusions with almost everything you write!!!!
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P.S. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot all thought the same thing, so you’re in famous company!
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How could anyone possible think you were a communist as you stated in one of your earlier posts? You betray what you are with every breath, no mention of monsters from the right that would fit this category also. Hitler, Mussollini ,PW Botha.
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It wasn’t me who very clearly wrote an anti-intellectual statement, IT WAS YOU. Everyone can see it for themselves! However, you could easily admit you were wrong in you want to.
Also, if you want to associate yourself with Hitler, Mussolini and Botha as well as Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot then that’s up to you, but you’re fundamentally wrong, both historically and morally.
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Stop talking rubbish and twisting your flawed argument round to me, most people know that behind most puppet dictators are so called intellectual advisers or just plain Machiavellian characters.
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So you think all the dictators throughout history were controlled by a shadowy group of ‘intellectual advisors’, do you? If so, perhaps for the sake of the future it would be best to eliminate anyone you think is intellectual!!!
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Real intellectuals would not come on here shouting their mouth off and insulting people, some do have morals and principles, unfortunately your are neither one of their rank nor do you have morals or principles.
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Ah! So now you’re saying the problem is between real intellectuals and false ones. Please tell us all… how do you usually decide which is which? Is it simply down to which ones use insults? …Which of course everyone can see that you never do!
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It’s an anaology I’ve heard used before to state the same. My right to move around the shared environment stops where it encroaches on your right to move around the shared environment. Unless some form of consent is given. It’s a basic analogy that states the limits of one’s rights in a social environment.
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Only against those who insult first or are manipulating conversations to make themselves look good, as you so obviously do do.
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Hehehe. You said doodoo. :p
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I think you forgot about threat and fear…
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DA – Thanks for that, it made me laugh!
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No I said dodo as in an extinct flightless bird similar to yourself. You would make a good ventriloquist with your puppeteer hand up the DA of DA.
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The real analogy is that if one has been punched many times before then simply a clenched fist is enough to impose control, consent is irrelevant in that case.
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Guy – Have you ever actually tried thinking about something instead of just retaliating?
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I do not have to think of my opinion of you or any snobbish criticism you try to make of me.
By the way to use “do do” in the same sentence is grammatically correct but I knew your ignorance would show through as to what my real intention was in writing it.
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Of course it’s correct! You really don’t get self-deprecation, do you?
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That’s after your rights have been violated though. And even then, I’d still have the right to clench a fist or spin round in helicoptors with my arms out stretched. I agree that there are more things going on, but the principle stands that all rights are alienable.
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I am not self deprecating but you most certainly do have an superiority complex erring on the side of megalomania.
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I KNOW you’re not self-deprecating, that’s why I said exactly that! And you just perfectly proved my point about retaliating instead of thinking!!!!
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d a
there is scientifically, proven evidence that in a british prison over a 5yr period, where the drugs bill was huge, violence proliferated, alarm bells rung regularly, yet 2yrs into this period the drugs bill plummeted and no alarm bells were rung, peace broke out prisoners started to read, paint. draw. learn quickly, and easily, because they regained their minds….
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No, you are wrong. You would NOT have that right, because you would know perfectly well that your clenched fist will still cause fear to the person you previously violated, and so obviously without their consent.
I’m not sure if we agree of not about rights. I think all ‘rights’ are a product of the time and the society, and are in a constant state of change. If that’s what you mean by “alienable” then I agree, but I don’t think that’s the right word.
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Anyone can agree then disagree with their own statements like you do to try and make themselves right, you have proved yourself to be a contradictory schizophrenic.
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apologies for the extra “don’t” in above, also “they’re” should be their.
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Are there any more mental illnesses you would like to tell me I’ve got? Go on, go for it… you’re not even trying very hard yet!
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I am not given to making things up so I think only the ones that are realistic will suffice.
You again were the first to dip into the pseudo science of psychiatry when describing me and others making comments on here, or are you going to deny that too.
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OBD,
I’m not sure of your point with that post. Could you elaborate?
FF,
We agree on the principle, just not on where the boundaries lie. I haven’t explained my view on it that well though. I’m not sure how to explain the model in my mind in words.
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d a
check it out for yourself….or in old vernacular seek and ye shall find…
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Oh my this has turned into a bitch fest… it’s like the house of commons, dare i say that a dictatorship from a ‘good individual’ would be more use..
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helen
but now you’ll have to prove the existence of good and evil and then define what is good and evil….
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Yes, I deny saying that you or anybody else has a mental illness… and for you to say that I suffer from schizophrenia is rank hypocrisy after you saying “FinkFurst your moniker insulting those that find it difficult to spell…”.
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Helen- Correct, that’s exactly what it is! BUT, I would argue that the House of Commons is FAR, FAR worse, because what we say here makes no difference to anyone else.
By the way, you forgot to answer my earlier question… Supposing a claimant simply refuses give up smoking or lose weight – would you be prepared to see them and their children become homeless or starve?
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DA – That’s because the boundaries are not fixed – life ain’t that simple! They depend on morality and intent, amongst other things.
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Come on Helen, you can have the baton now against this quizling, I’m off to do some work.
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Dear Da and all
Many are presuming that this person may have attended a work focused interview or ATOS assessment or even missed a planned interview for assessment and therefore may have been sanctioned for some reason or another but here is my input about my personal experience.
i have a serious illness which i dont wish to go into, Happily i have always obtained all medical records and proof of my illness and how it effects my daily life and this has always been accepted by the DWP however there have been complications twice where i have attended 2 recorded interviews ( I always demand they are recorded ) with Atos so called healthcare professionals and they have spent 30 mins with me asking me various questions which when sent back the DWP department i have been found fit for work, Upon appealing we received a paper copy of the questions asked and the answers given, On both occasions over 90 percent of the questions asked at my interview / assessment the atos healthcare professional had changed the answers to totally the opposite answer that i had given which meant i would not get the points awarded that i was entitled to, On both appeals they were turned over before it went anywhere, Might i also add that all medical proof supplied at the atos end of the process was never taken into account by atos
How are genuine ill people supposed to stand any chance of being treated fair when all atos healthcare do is lie, Might i add that atos healthcare used to work for the benefits agencies in the USA but the USA government got rid of them because of their dishonesty and their lying in hundreds of thousands of cases across the USA
Good luck to you all!!!
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What i am saying is they are not all bad at the DWP, When atos is used DWP can only go on what information atos give them and if atos lie to meet their quotas on your case then your not going to get the outcome you should from the DWP, Its tough sadly and it always will be, There will always be departments making mistakes but i have usually found if you can prove atos did you wrong the DWP usually are happy to help you out if you prove this to them
Dont give up, Atos is the bad apple in the barrel so just keep on top of them when possible
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A perfect baton handover there Guy, you didn’t even come close to dropping it!
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Ian,
If what you say is true, and you have recorded evidence of criminal negligence and misconduct, have you approached any legal advisor/watchdog/police/MP with the evidence for use in a class action law suit?
If they are flagrantly breaking the law like this then we need an inquest. Can you take the evidence you have to your local police station?
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You have now spent a while looking and obviously couldn’t find anywhere where I said you are mentally ill, whilst you said very clearly that I am mentally ill. I think you should apologise to me now…
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Each DWP front desk worker has to sanction 6 Units per day that 6 people per day per adviser in every office across the uk, Sanctions from being 5 mins late for an interview to totally missing an interview, and if your all wondering this info has come from an adviser from our local office who knows our family, If they don’t continually meet their 6 a day quota they eventually lose their job themselves
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Devils Advocate is very determined to muddy the waters and draw attention away from the real issue, which is that people can be sanctioned for not having treatment.
Its a human rights abuse.
Ignore Devils Advocates passive aggressive stance and attempts to deflect people from the truth.
He always ends up looking a dick, but he refuses to address the real issues and builds his own straw man debates.
This is nothing to do with applying for ESA, which he would recognise if he was half as clever as he thinks he is.
Oh and DA? You know that MS you claim to have, well anyone can say that… lets have some evidence eh?
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I would think that if a person would rather eat and smoke than care for the child then that person has chosen to be homeless and as it is no fault of the child the child could be put under the eyes of social services and if needed placed into care, some places have started breakfast clubs at schools but as it is a child parent who are ultimately responsible, it begs the question if these people should have children in the first place.
Overburneddonkey- my view isn’t to work or go without, but simply attempt a contribution to society or go without.
Hypothetically a ‘good’ person acts on empathy for all others and therefore acts with a balance between the majority and morality. Is not set in a particular view like “oh i’m labour/torry, always will be blar blar” but has an adjustable opinion based on new information.
Again hypothetically and what democracy is supposed to be, it that everyone should be able to contribute to a decision and the majority vote is what is executed, however sometimes the majority is immoral hence a single good person or an M.P for an area. But the problem is that the most ‘good’ person within a county or area isn’t the M.P.
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Also I would argue that what we do and say here and everyday to everyone does make a difference to society as a whole.
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Very true and ATOS and their fake previously struck off ex medical staff lie about your illness to DWP to meet their quotas and get their monetary rewards, DWP who are instructed to take the evidence supplied by ATOS then get all the aggro as you can never get to speak to anyone at ATOS about your case, As in one of my earlier posts i have proved twice now in appeal that atos changed the answers i gave to over 90 percent of the questions asked me to benefit themselves
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Very little of what people say in a comments feed on the internet makes any difference out there in the really real world. :p
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guy fawks- Unfortunately, to be get into power and retain power, one has to be machiavellian by nature, so a truly good person is unlikely to be voted in and retain the position.
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helen
you offer a valuable contribution, but can you please be more specific and less generic….
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I meant, It’s the attitude that’s important, to communicate and understand one another as much as possible. So it does improve society
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overbudenddonley- its hard to be specific without specifics. What are you asking?
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Helen,
You can be a good person an follow the principles of Machiavellian leadership. They are actually very good principles to live your live by. Essentially, be pragmatic, skeptical, passionate and proactive.
1. Anticipate the worst and take action. Risk can never be eliminated, but it can be contained by those who plan ahead and take appropriate action.
2. The only reliable allies are those who benefit from our successes. Team up only with those who truly benefit from our victories or our opponent’s defeat.
3. Do not squander time, not even during periods of rest. Free time and work time really are all part of the limited amount of time we have at our disposal to succeed at our goals.
4. Forgiving those who do us wrong is a mistake. When we forgive those who do us harm, we undercut the efforts of those who are loyal. Punish the disobedient; love the loyal.
5. Passion is the best motivator. It pays to seek out people who believe passionately in what they do.
6. Trust enemies above friends for frankness. We can trust our enemies to criticise us when we deserve to be criticised. Friends are often less honest with us.
7. The hard road to the top is often the best. Leaders who inherit their success are often more likely to fail than self-made people who are forced to learn important life lessons during their own climbs.
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The law is clear beyond peradventure that even if you cut off your own legs to claim the Higher Rate of Disability Allowance, you will be entitled to it. This calls for hundreds of emails to be sent to iain Duncan Smith MP, Secretary of State for Works and Pensions. His email address is alambridesl@parliament.uk
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helen
the points that you make are generic generalizations, i am asking you to be more specific say about what you mean by a contribution to society, what do you think that is or ought to be in your view…. ,
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I don’t think you actually are a barrister! Firstly, this is not actually a legal issue, it’s only DWP instructions, but they seem to be very clear that if you DID cut off your legs purely in order to claim higher benefit then you would NOT receive it.
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Nah, though they do cover all bases in the standard letter, as you say, it doesn’t generally mention contributing to your own condition at all. First one I’ve seen so far.
We produced a report early in 2013 that warned of this 😦 http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/esasos.html?m=1
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Helen – You still seem to be having trouble with saying yes or no! My answer is no. Saying that irresponsible parents shouldn’t have had children in the first place is a crass cop-out. If your answer is to take many thousands more children into care then it will be worse for those children and cost vastly more of the money. What kind of solution is that?
As for your answer to Guy Fawkes… isn’t the obvious best and most moral option to vote for somebody you think WILL be good for society as a whole, and not necessarily good for you?
You are right that what we say here does have some effect, so I was wrong to say it has none, but I’m sure you’ll admit it’s somewhat less than in the House of Commons.
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will it annoy you if i just said by being ‘good’ …
Society, being a group of people involved with each other through direct or indirect relations; society may be described as the sum total of such relationships among its constituent members. So, it is the moral responsibility of each individual within the society to ensure societies continuation. So what ever that is to each person. On a large scale we have to ensure Britain’s continuation for needs of individuals as well as the many- so handle deficit etc, hence benefits cuts and tax increases etc. So as a society we must adjust and therefore continue our survival as a whole.
So to be specific, working is the best way to contribute to the bigger picture, on a smaller scale its looking after your family, ensuring your children are educated etc. all the way down to not littering.
If a said person is disabled and absolutely cannot work as a form of contribution: then it is societies moral obligation to help and support the person DLA etc. but that person has a moral obligation within his/her capacity to contribute to other relations.
In terms of a specific case- what you said earlier about a government department deciding a person can contribute by looking for work, simply showing initiative within their capacity is at least something. People who say but ‘I can’t get a job because of the economic climate or I’m unemployable due to my whatever’ is fair enough as long as they continue to try.
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Devil’s Advocate ~I agree with the Machiavellian leadership concept (i’ve read the prince) but it does not always instruct us to act with empathy, and a leader should not want to be a leader in the first place, but be placed there as it is beneficial to the masses. Although in the real modern world this will never happen.
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My darling FinkFurst, I know as fact, because I am a senior member of the Bar, that “The law is clear beyond peradventure that even if you cut off your own legs to claim the Higher Rate of Disability Allowance, you will be entitled to it.” If this is not a legal issue, pray tell, why does the DWP allow legal appeals, in accordance with Parliamentary legislation, against its decisions? Would it assist if I quoted chapter and verse?
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FinkFurst- My answer is no it is not acceptable but is the answer to throw money at the parent- No. I agree that a proper solution hasn’t been found. By saying many thousands more children would go into care suggests that you believe that many people would put themselves before their children! Perhaps disincentivising people from having children to get houses and have benifits isn’t a bad thing.
And yes of course the obvious best and most moral option is to vote for somebody you think WILL be good for society as a whole, and not necessarily good for you.
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A barrister- you don’t need to regale law, pregnant women can still pee in a bobby’s hat last i looked, the question is, is it right?
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Helen, it’s not a question of whether (or not) it’s right. It’s merely a question of the brief fee. I was once asked how I felt when I defended someone whom I believed was guilty and he or she was acquitted. Obviously, not as good as I felt when I prosecuted someone whom I believed was innocent and he or she was convicted. The last time I peed in a copper’s helmet was on Waterloo Station in 1988.
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My dearest ‘Barrister’
Yes, that would be very helpful, provided you actually ARE able to cite the chapter and verse which support your contention that deliberate self-mutilation purely in order to claim benefits would not invalidate that claim. I’m willing to bet that you can’t!
Lots of love
Fink
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Helen – Thank you for your answer. Sadly it’s true that very large numbers of parents DO put themselves before their children, and you are naive to think otherwise. Our social solutions have to be designed to cope with reality.
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The amount paid to a barrister for his/her appearance in court? You have no wider view on society as a whole, laws are made and changed based on society morals and values
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Helen, it’s clearly not right but sometimes, a legal challenge may be more effective because it takes the dispute out of the DWP controlled arena into a more public arena, hopefully overseen by an independent judiciary.
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I agree that I don’t know the true number of negligent parents, but i don’t think you do either. Our solutions are currently a care system, but i’m inclined to think prevention is a better solution, it may not help current children, but it will future ones. Disincentivising and education.
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so why were you arguing with finkfurst about the law lol if a man did chop off his legs and claim DLA and appeal and win, this would bring it into a public arena and then the public would demand a change to the law.
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Helen – I thing INCENTIVISING and education is a better idea, but the difference between us is maybe only one of attitude.
I also don’t know the number, but if negligence means an absent parent, or one who continues to smoke, drink, gamble etc. whilst their child goes without healthy food, new clothes, books, etc. then I suspect the number is in the high hundreds of thousands.
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Hi FinkFurst and Helen,
I apologise for my inappropriate comments.
The legislation is here:
Click to access ukpga_19910021_en.pdf
If you look at p.13, it says:
“5.—(l) The Secretary of State may make such regulations as appear to Regulations
him necessary or expedient in relation to the substitution of disability supplementary to
living allowance for attendance allowance and mobility allowance and 5S. I tO 4.
the dissolution of the Attendance Allowance Board.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of this section, regulations
under this section—
(a) may provide for the termination or cancellation of awards of
attendance allowance and awards of mobility allowance; … ”
and:
“(d) may provide for the termination in specified circumstances of an
award of disability living allowance; … ”
No regulations have been made that entitle the DWP not to pay Disability Living Allowance to claimants whose condition is a result of self-harm.
As I said above, the email address of Iain Duncan Smith, Secretary of State for Works and Pensions is alambridesl@parliament.uk and he is the person with whom I believe DWP decisions may be more effectively challenged.
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Helen
Let’s hope that laws are not made on your idea of society, your idea or morals or your idea of values,
Those that you think should govern are those that have clawed their way to the top.
I think those that have greatness and governance thrust upon them because of all of the above qualities are most qualified to rule, not some careerist parent who puts their children into childcare to rear, while they pursue their career. Give me a parent that has a child to rear themselves, whether they smoke or not.
A Bonfire of the vanities is long overdue.
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1991? Are you serious???? Have you not read the Employment and Support Allowance Regulations 2008 and 2013?
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pardon? I think you misunderstand- I did say earlier that a a good leader would act with empathy, and a leader should not want to be a leader in the first place, but be placed there by the masses as it is beneficial to the masses. Although in the real modern world this will never happen. Ideally a good person would be leader. I haven’t said anything about career parents? I don’t think you’ve read everything properly.
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All I said is that individuals in society should take responsibility for their position within society for the betterment of the whole… What is your idea of society?
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what exactly are you assuming my idea of society, morals and values are?
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Yes, I’m familiar with those Regulations. As I said, no regulations have been made that entitle the DWP not to pay Disability Living Allowance to claimants whose condition is as a result of self-harm.
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helen
notwithstanding that i have already expressed an opinion on those points…do you believe that our current “democratic system” is the right tool to deliver on the points that you have raised in your post that i am now responding to…..re your last paragraph is not a claim that i would make…..it is entirely up to the person concerned what contribution if any they would make in any situation, i strongly believe in freewill….
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Then read Part 12 about disqualification you moron!!! …and in case you hadn’t noticed DLA is being phased out!!!
If this is the measure of your rational abilities then perhaps I could suggest that you never become a barrister!
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Your words helen.
I would think that if a person would rather eat and smoke than care for the child then that person has chosen to be homeless and as it is no fault of the child the child could be put under the eyes of social services and if needed placed into care, some places have started breakfast clubs at schools but as it is a child parent who are ultimately responsible, it begs the question if these people should have children in the first place.
Overburneddonkey- my view isn’t to work or go without, but simply attempt a contribution to society or go without.
You are contradicting yourself, you are saying people should not go without, but then are saying those who drink or smoking are condemning themselves to go without, even to be denied the right to have children.
My argument being that those who pursue careers are as negligent of their children than someone who drinks or smokes is purported to be
below your words again Helen a disincentivising dictator.
.I agree that I don’t know the true number of negligent parents, but i don’t think you do either. Our solutions are currently a care system, but i’m inclined to think prevention is a better solution, it may not help current children, but it will future ones. Disincentivising and education.
I don’t like your idea of who you consider to be good or not.
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Does your bottom hurt from the time you spent in prison after I successfully prosecuted you?
The “Disqualification for misconduct etc.” to which you refer, does not apply to “a person in hardship”. Obviously, you never read anything to the end.
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…and you haven’t read the definition of “a person in hardship”. Does your bottom hurt from talking out of it so much?
You have no comment about DLA being phased out, and so your earlier ‘chapter and verse’ being irrelevant then…….?
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Shame there’s no ‘Like’ button on here because you’d have a few clicks from me. I have to go now. Thanks for the skirmish. 🙂
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Helen this is another contradictory reply of yours to DA. You agree with a Machiavellian leader who clearly does not act empathetically, then go on to describe a different type of leader more beneficial to the masses.
Devil’s Advocate ~I agree with the Machiavellian leadership concept (i’ve read the prince) but it does not always instruct us to act with empathy, and a leader should not want to be a leader in the first place, but be placed there as it is beneficial to the masses. Although in the real modern world this will never happen.
Reply
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helen
so, a good leader would tell me what empathy is, interesting pov….
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Drinking and smoking is a choice, of course it is not acceptable for people to go without, especially vulnerable groups such as children. But I ask you what would you expect society to do with people who don’t contribute to the survival of society but have the capacity to, those who do not even make an attempt to help themselves? With all the help a moral society can give them if they choose not to, what can we do? I agree that generalisations seem harsh and that each individual case is different. In terms of parenting- do you think that children are in the best environment around an alcoholic. In terms of smoking I meant more if a parent chooses to buy fags or chocolate or gamble or max out credit cards rather than feed their family, society should intervene in some way. Through education, through incentivising behaviour that helps and deincentivising behaviour that doesn’t.
As for the notion that those who pursue careers are as negligent of their children as someone with a drink problem i think your mistaken. Being a constructive member of your smaller social groups- your family is just as important to society as contributing to the national debt. I would like you to answer my earlier question : What is your idea of society and what would you do with those that drain it?
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Do you even know what a Machiavellian leader is? Have you read the prince?
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The REALLY sad thing is that even though you have just proved yourself to be a moron, you actually MIGHT be a barrister!
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I said i agreed with concept of one, a Machiavellian leader isn’t evil, he has to behave a certain way to maintain power.
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I don’t have enough time to address all your points, but the short answer is that sadly the cheapest option (unless you want to see kids begging in the streets) is to just carry on paying benefits to many irresponsible people. This is the political and practical reality.
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Overburdeneddonkey- freewill can never truly be disputed as everyone has a choice of course, but you don’t have the choice with regards to being are a part of the society in which you were born, we have many benefits to being born in Britain, but society must force a contribution from its members or society would fall, and morally you should.
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Last i checked we are, but with some tightened pursestrings
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Helen and Devilfink
You are obviously subscribers to the daily mail if you think this country is full of irresponsible, drink or drug fueled individuals in the first place.
Most of the propaganda was deliberately created just so they could forcibly reduce benefits to the poorest in society, while telling the richest that they can choose whether or not to accept benefits that they are not entitled to because of their wealth.
The welfare state is WELFARE not WEALTHFARE for the richest, it is based on need not greed.
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helen
WOW!
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You still haven’t answered me… and i don’t read the daily mail… I don’t think society is full of bad people, but people are innately selfish, which is why i said an empathetic leader is better. And I agree that benefits should not be given to those that don’t need it, it shouldn’t be used to buy votes in the next election either, as it has been used previously- it is as an exchange a contribution to society for money. It should be based on need, but need is relative- does someone who could be trying their hardest to contribute to society but doesn’t really have a need?
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Guy – People might start to take you seriously if you discuss what they actually said rather than invent things. Go on, try it sometime. I think you will find it more fulfilling than your current empty rhetoric.
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or even someone who could easily contribute to society but doesn’t- have a need?
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The current government welfare ‘austerity’ measures are all about politics and not about saving any significant amount of money, or making people’s lives worse or better, although for many people one or the other is the inevitable outcome of this sick political game. It’s all about selling a manufactured party political product, as was the previous Labour charade.
The amount of money is small compared to the amount which has been spent (wasted) on killing innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and how much more will be wasted on Trident replacement and HS2? Politics should be about moral priorities, and NONE of the three main parties make any sense.
I’m sick of party politics, and the people who take party politics seriously, rather than taking ordinary people’s lives seriously and trying to do something to make most of them better.
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guy fawkes- you are being critical and a little insulting but aren’t throwing out many solutions to what we’ve been talking about… you think if your poor you should get free money, so whats stopping everyone from doing that and then a complete collapse of the economy. If figures are to be believed 20.3 million families are receiving some kind of benefit (64% of all families) For 9.6 million families, benefits make up more than half of their income (30% of all families). How do you think this is sustainable?
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Well said, unfortunately all we have is party politics so…
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Yes! Whether they contribute or not they could still have a need for benefit.
This government is asking people to work for nothing practically, can we go into a shop and ask the shopkeeper to sell us their goods for practically nothing, of course not, so asking people who need real jobs with real pay to work for benefits is an insult..
Wages need to rise not benefits to be reduced to a point where they are causing severe hardship, as is the case now. But silly you seems to think the needy deserve to go without, especially if they might treat themselves occasionally, usually with handouts from family or friends who know their situation is the governments fault not theirs.
You obviously either know nothing of the conditionality of the benefits system or don’t care, it is outright bullying by dictators and if you subscribe to this then I’m afraid I would be wasting my time explaining the type of society I would wish to live in.
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helen
you clearly agree with the govts that weren’t elected policies, and are merely regurgitating the propaganda it spouts….freewill as long as we do as we are told…
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Your statement Helen, ” if figures are to be believed”, which they are not, 20.3 million also includes child benefits, stop exaggerating, you are probably worried that you could be the next homeless and destitute, well as you say life experiences make you a better person so stop worrying about economic slow down, it is a global problem at the moment, but markets are not responding as they should because they like the interest rate and the need for welfare reform are being manipulated.
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So Helen and OBD – If there was a general election tomorrow, who would you vote for?
I would ask you too Guy, but I might just as well ask a tree.
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what do you mean? freewill as long as we do as we are told? you make it sound like a distopia, but what would be a utopia if not everyone helping each other, getting along and contributing to the utopian existence- isn’t that the idea of heaven? If all people were to disregard the needs of others, the needs of the many simply because they don’t want to, ‘i have freewill therefore i choose to sit on my arse’ what kind of world is that?
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helen
here are your words……”freewill can never truly be disputed as everyone has a choice of course, but you don’t have the choice with regards to being are a part of the society in which you were born, we have many benefits to being born in Britain, but society must….force….a contribution from its members or society would fall, and morally you should”…….
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f f
greens
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DevilFink
I don’t need your permission to speak on any subject, but refuse to answer questions unless I want to answer them. I’m afraid unlike you and Helen I do not think I can solve societies problems on the back of a postage stamp or with a couple of comments on a blogg.
Economies are being manipulated by the wealthy, wily and morally worthless at present.
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I admit i’m getting rather irritated at guy fawkes, your not having a conversion of thoughts your simply exploding your opinion with out taking in anything anyone is saying. It irritates me when people mindlessly complain about their situation or others situations but do nothing to solve anything or even formulate opinions properly by looking at all the factors and weighing up to an end judgment. You haven’t said anything contributory at all….
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ps helen
what is your view on behaviourism? + i never said ‘i have freewill therefore i choose to sit on my arse’ what kind of world is that? you did…
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yes…
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i know but free will with too much liberty is a bad thing, we need societal constraints to function as a group
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behaviors and conditioning you mean?
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OBD
I think Devil has been substituted for Hell – en by Finks Fingers, insults not innovation is their only reply to their own stupid questions.
Fink thinks he is Clint Eastwood “I talk to the trees”!
I think we both know who are the ones that are as thick as planks and about as sensitive.
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helen
behavoiurism…
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yes we do….
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I wonder if someone can put a societal constraint on Helen’s comments?
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as you choose not to answer i now chose to ignore you… free will wins
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the the theory that human behavior can be explained in terms of conditioning, without any regarding to thoughts or feelings.
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Helen
Just what are you solving by agreeing with government policies that are creating more problems than they are solving.
Your contribution is worthless to those that are suffering and quite frankly your replies imply that you don’t give a stuff.
You display every inch of the selfishness SOME blinkered people like you possess.
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helen
specifically CBT
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Free will, with any less than total liberty, by definition, is not free will.
If you place a deer in a cage, which is 1m^3, you’re restricting it’s freedom by a huge amount. But increase the size of the cage to 10m^3 and it’s got some freedom, but it’s still not free. Increase the size to a field; nature reserve; a country; a planet… The cage is still there. They are still not free. At what stage does the illusion of free will become large enough to be able to classify yourself as free?
We are all governed by natural laws. Descriptive laws that come from emergent properties of natural phenomenon. We are subject to the logical absolutes. We are even subject to delusions that are, subjectively, indistinguishable from reality. We may have the illusion of free will, but we are definitely not free to do as we choose.
If you’ve tried attuning yourself for lucid dreaming, you’ll see what I mean. My dream check trigger is to click my fingers. If nothing happens, I’m awake. What I expect to happen is that time will stand still. If that happens then my dream becomes lucid. It’s worked maybe twice in the last year. Because it is a suspension of reality, a breaking of the naturalistic laws, a violation of my own free will; that’s the only reason I know I’m dreaming.
But, that’s maybe a segway too far. Needless to say, the free will which we all feel is a man made concept, the same as bronze age myths and alien abductions. They may seem real and people rather stupidly base their lives around them, but they’re not real. But, importantly here, even though I know I do not actually have free will, the illusion thereof is so strong that I can act as though I do to the best of my ability.
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g fawkes
my antidote is listening to the ying tong song or martyn bennet “aye”…
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You do have a choice on whether or not you contribute to the society in which you are born. For instance… you can leave. People do choose to leave all the time due to a myriad of reasons. Tax evasion being one of them. But, each ex-pat has their own story.
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Haha. I actually quite like the name DevilFink. :p
Does that mean I can vote NO in the referendum later this year? 😀
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OBD
Come on pin your colours to the mast, say what you really think.
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g fawkes
you’ve been dying to ask that……
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g fawkes
all of my views are what i truly think, tell me about what specifically and i’ll answer in my own way, for sure….
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I disagree strongly with “a leader should not want to be a leader in the first place, but be placed there as it is beneficial to the masses”. I think that is, not to put too much of a point on it, bullshit.
The person I want being the leader of any situation I am in should have, as the bare minimum, a willingness to be in the role. A leader who has no intention of leading, doesn’t lead. The leader in any situation is the figurehead, the spokesperson and the commander. They don’t need expert knowledge of their field, in fact I’d prefer them not to have. Leaders in general areas need to make objective decisions and so cannot be blinded by their own expertise within the field they’re working in. It is usually best to have a figurehead who take advice from experts in multiple fields.
This figurehead has to be unbiased, proactive and confident. A timid leader can make a very poor leader. They need to delegate duties and give orders rather than assign tasks.
There is also a big difference between what makes a good leader and an effective leader. There are times you need one or the other and there are times you need both. Your version of leadership can only give one or the other.
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If you really are a barrister, you’ve only just finished your GDL. Which means even in the real world you’re pretending to be a barrister. You’ve also never stepped foot inside a prison, no barrister would say that. Come back once your wig is wet. At least borrow someone’s BVC certificate for a day.
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OBD
Who do you think, judging by their comments is as thick as a plank?
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OBD – If I was living in England then I think I would vote Green too, but with a sense of futility.
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Of course you can…. if you move to Scotland first!
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g fawkes
actually i would rather tell them myself, but rest assured i do like you and i do care for your opinion, we understand each other without too many words these days, which i value….
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So long as it’s Aberdeen. I know a beautiful girl who lives in Aberdeen. 😀 I couldn’t live in Scotland for too long though. I went to Herriot Watt Uni in Edinburgh for a weekend and even in that short time I couldn’t resist having a deep fried meat feast pizza and a deep fried donna kebab. I sweated batter. It was amazing!
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ps i also feel that some people are not worth getting into a froth about, and if we can unite on major issues that we all feel strongly about then so much the better….
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OBD
Thanks for that reply, but personally compromising on issues that are to the detriment of the poorest in society is not my way and I feel that is what the likes of Fink and Hellen want from me.
Any detraction or criticism of their viewpoint is just asking for their insults or derision and is why I refuse to reply to their questions.
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f f
same here, but you did call a snap election and i panicked…for sure the next hurdle for us in scotland is quite soon…
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g fawkes
then stick to the core issue then, don’t be distracted from that….the frustration is explaining and re explaining to others, finding spontaneous answers…by thick you mean out of touch? hard work….use the chance to hone your skills….
the question is, who agrees that to remove benefits on such arbitrary grounds, and they way that they do it, is bad….as if, removing benefits improves outcomes, it does not, it makes things worse for all…the dwp should not have that power…forcing people to go without when they are sick and disabled is barbaric…
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Guy – You also should try to ask open questions. You just made the assumption on OBD’s behalf that he thinks somebody is thick as a plank. Maybe he doesn’t think anybody is. Your attitude suggests that all you’re looking for is confirmation that you’re right, and you’re not really interested in OBD’s opinion at all.
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“Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau
“People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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OBD
On that note, I think I will branch out and leaf this subject to be rooted out by others.
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g fawkes
well, we’ll certainly not get a straight answer from helen that’s for sure….
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I got a straight answer from Helen, but I had to ask three times!
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I’m afraid the first quote is simply not true, countless people are not born free.
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helen
freewill is indeed the freedom to say yes, or no, against the will of others and therefore do what is morally right….to be coerced into action by others is morally wrong….
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ps helen
i’ll add more specificity, freewill is indeed the freedom of mind to say, yes, or no,, against the will of others, and therefore do what is morally right for one’s self….to be coerced into action by others is morally wrong…..
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Guy Fawkes I think there is much in what you say regarding diagnostics. Cancer diagnosis is a seriously complex process taking in several disciplines of medicine/surgery. Any complex system, particularly one that’s underfunded or where there is a warped ideological driver (NHS & DWP) is going to have some mistakes which may wreck lives.
Having spent one year watching nurses, docs, consultants, it surprises me that, in a culture where morale is very low, that more mistakes don’t get made.
I think both systems have become total behemoths, unresponsive to individual needs and this is going to add to misdiagnosis and suffering
Cancer is a bit of a star amongst diseases, probably because it can kill you and it suffers from the hangover of once being a disease that if you got it in any form, you inevitably died a protracted and agonising death as a bonus.
There are plenty of other diseases and conditions known as “orphans” because they aren’t sexy or just don’t attract research funding. But some these orphans can cause you as much pain, distress, fear and debilitation as any old cancer can. Some can kill you too.
I don’t agree with Cancer garnering so much special attention. I find the charity advertising, infantile and believe that the repulsive pink washing culture of breast cancer doesn’t do much beyond bully women. There’s nothing glamorous about being told you have cancer OR being told your benefits are being stopped and homelessness is just around the corner.
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Helen, you have forgotten that the NI fund only exists because the taxes people pay go to create and sustain it. People only pay those contributions because they have been promised by the state/government that the money is to help individuals when they need help through unemployment, age (pension) and sickness/injury. Yes, people who need it do have a right to that money. They are entitled.
I’d suggest that you learn a little bit about the psychology of learning. One of the most basic tenets of learning is that no real learning can take place where there is any threat of punishment. Why? Because the only thing learned is fear of more punishment.
So, the more you punish the obese person for not losing weight, the more fear you instill in them, the less likely they are to be able to lose weight.
The more you berate and bully the smoker who cannot give up, the less likely they are to try and quit.
This is very basic stuff, alas in the generally punitive culture of everything these days in the UK, it is more often than not forgotten and proves that those making the decisions on how systems are created and run (DWP/IDS) are driven by something other than the aim to help someone get well or off their addictive substance of preference.
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lucy
yes, punishment causes exactly the dysfunctional society we find ourselves in today, as the fear becomes trapped, frozen…and often explosive, when triggered, projected away from the abusers, who have the power to cause the fear…alice miller, oliver james, dotrathy rowe and bob johnson et al, have a lot to say about the causes of fear and it’s remedy….
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Like you made the assumption that if I would not answer your questions I was a tree.
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Actually my assumption wasn’t necessarily that you wouldn’t answer, it was also that your answer would be evasive. Maybe I was wrong, so now is your opportunity to prove me wrong…
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I would ask you too Guy, but I might just as well ask a tree.
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You could have given a rational answer, and maybe even apologised to me for saying that I’m mentally ill, but you chose to do neither and just copied what I said to you. It looks like I was perfectly right about you.
You can still prove me wrong at any time you like…
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“People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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May I ask you another question, and will you promise to give me a truthful answer?
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“You say it best when you say nothing at all”!
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If anyone asked me the same thing, I would simply say “Yes”. The fact that you are afraid to answer ANY question speaks volumes. I think what you are afraid of is within yourself. I wish you well, because your morals and politics seem to be sound.
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“Empty vessels make the most sound”!
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Is there anything you would like to ask me?
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“Silence is golden”!
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“Silence is golden”… and said without a trace of irony!
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My reply to you, without any evidence at all, is that you are an extremely apologist. Tedious to the Nth degree.
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Unahashamedly, I am an apologist for Empiricism and Skepticism. They are the best methods we have of distinguishing between what’s real and what’s not. What else should we use?
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Sorry my comment was rife with typos and did not make grammatical sense. However, I think for all your supposed “empirical” motivation, you seem to continually ignore valid empirical facts adduced by the majority of posters to this blog.
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“I am not mentally ill” said by you without a trace of irony, despite being antagonistic to the extent that someone with OCD would be shocked, whose so called logical arguments are nothing more than his own twisted perceptions of the truth and who is not happy unless he is controlling every argument, even inventing other nom-de plumes to convince others he is right, and you think you are sane? Shh!
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Do you STILL think that I and Devil’s Advocate are the same person? Is this where your accusations of schizophrenia and twisted arguments are coming from? Have you considered that the FAR more rational explanation is that Devil’s Advocate actually IS a different person?
Doesn’t the fact that I have disagreed with him many times suggest we really are two different people… or do you think that is just another ruse to hide the truth from you?
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On the contrary, most of the things said in this thread are opinions and purely anecdotal. Even the letter that forms the main clause of the article is not empirical evidence for this case. It proves nothing. I have to form the best model I can with the evidence I have to hand. If more evidence come to light; i.e. if the letter was posted in full, along with everything that was used to make the decision and a statement by the DA; then I would change my view if it stood in opposition with the conclusions. My world view is self correcting and ever refining. It’s not perfect, it never will be, but at any one point in time, it is always “right” as it points towards what is best known, for the best reasons.
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Maybe he’s a Solipsist. If so, and Solipsism turns out to be correct, we could actually be the same person. So far as everyone else is concerned anyway.
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If that’s so, then my mind doesn’t actually exist, and in fact Guy must be writing this post himself! Did you just write what I think you wrote about Solipsism, or was it Guy writing it in your name, but through my mind, which is in fact his mind, but I don’t know that it is?
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d a
you produce some very odd concepts to describe people and situations, how would you describe yourself….just wondering…imo she is a very grounded down to earth person…her intuition is usually spot on…
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OBD – Are you saying that Guy Fawkes is female? If so the Solipsistic problems have just doubled!
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f f
if you must know….i have had the privilege to know her for some while now, although we have never met….in what sense do you claim that the solipsistic “problems” have just doubled?
i had to look up the stupid word, what a crazy world when there are such terms to micromanage the repression of personalities….lets get real and use working class language to describe working class oppression….
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In the sense “of humour”.
That’s how I read it. It’s a strange concept, I know; someone on the internet, making jokes. :p Sarcasm is best served in person apparantly.
1. Remove stick from arse.
2. Re-read comment, in context.
3. ????
4. PROFIT!
(Disclaimer: This post may or may not contain attempts at humour; reader discretion is advised.)
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OBD – That was just a silly thought prompted by what DA said. It doesn’t matter. Do you really want me to use plain working class language? In fact I’m more comfortable with that anyway. As you have known Guy for some time I will do so if you would prefer it… Do you?
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d a
is the above your reply to my most recent question? if it is i don’t understand it…
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Jees, you asked in what sense did he say what he said. I said “with a sense of humour”. He was making a joke. It was satire.
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OBD – Are you asking me to use plain working class language about Ms Fawkes or not?
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f f
well this would be nothing to do with knowing guy for some time…and there are many reasons why using commonly understood language is preferable for at least my understanding….imo a more down to earth approach to language is required in inclusive situations…and i under stand what you say perfectly but really i have no interest in philosophy as a subject, it’s findings or outcomes (and i don’t think that you really have either)…as it usually comes from others looking in on the lives of the masses…i usually like what you post btw…even though sometimes i feel it is wrong, it is not usually too wrong…we agree that poverty is a serious subject lets keep it that way….
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OBD – Actually it IS about you knowing Guy, because you chose to cross that threshold of association and defence. You didn’t answer my question. Do you want me to use plain working class language about Guy or not? I will do exactly as you say.
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d a
well i don’t usually have problems understanding satire….perhaps i’m not expecting it, on posts that are as i see them very serious subjects but hey that is just my view and my attunement to the gross injustices that many people are facing atm…
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f f
i,m trying to understand what you are saying but i am unable to…perhaps i’ll come back to it when i do…..
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PS Sophistry is the name of the Siamese twins game. I studied Philosophy myself but dropped the subject because of it’s incessant nit picking and premises leading to never ending conclusions.
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OBD – It’s a very simple question. Do you want me to use plain working class language about Guy or not?
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f f
like i said i may answer it when i fully understand what you are asking….i was actually speaking about my need to hear and use accessible language in posts….
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In all honesty, this conversation hasn’t been about Katie for a long time. In conversations such as this… online… there is a need to take each post with a pinch of salt and try to understand in what context the other person wrote it. It can be difficult and we don’t always manage it. Humour is essential. Memes are used for ill and good online; people come and go from the thread and tempers flare very quickly. Only a small amount of what we actually say to each other during a conversation actually comes from the words. A lot of it is body language, tone of voice, somantic gestures, etc. Without those key hints it is easy to take things vastly out of context. Especially if people do not use grammar and punctuation correctly; as has been seen here already, a lack of punctuation totally flipped the clause of the argument in the mind of the reader. I don’t know how all TTS engines work, but those that I have used will add in punctuation if you tell it to.
Away from that, I don’t know how long this thread can go on for. We can all agree it’s all bad and boooo down with the government, but one internet comment feed a revolution does not make.
Do you read the people post, lost in the pages of the thread?
It is the writings of a people who are raging ’til they’re red.
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Apologies… STT rather than TTS.
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The working class can understand you no problem, your arrogance and ego is showing again.
OBD is a gentle soul which is more than can be said for you and your combative personality, even in jest.
We understand your circumlocutionary way of speaking, but most of us do not want to sound like a text book we are not that pretentious unless pushed.
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f f
have you read all of the posts on this blog post?
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OBD
Ignore DevilFink he’s a moron. When he say’s he wants to speak to you about me in working class language he is referring to the stereotyping of working class men being sexist and that is how he has already started speaking of me, with his recent insult of solipsism accusation being doubled now he knows I’m a woman.
What he doesn’t know is I was raised on sexist jokes, they are like mother’s milk to me and I still love them to this day.
I did not choose the moniker Guy Fawkes because I am some strident feminist, but more for it’s political connotations in this day and age, rather than the intentionality of Guy Fawkes in his era, nor does it imply that I am gay, although can be as competitive at times than alpha males and females. I do hate the term ms I am a Mrs.
Also Fink has just proved that gender recognition tends to turn certain men into subjective rather than objective beings, which does not usually happen when women debate with women, but I have enjoyed the banter that I probably would not have been privy to had some posters known my sex.
.
Men are the ones in general that will side with and defend one another too, I guess it’s a man thing, but there are some men like OBD who is a Gem in my eyes, not because he defended me, but because he is more gentle, understanding and forgiving than I am and that is a rare quality in a straight man.
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Dear Mrs Fawkes – Not only have you assumed that I’m a man, you’ve also then invented a whole set of negative ‘male’ opinions which I supposedly hold. Now who’s being sexist!
I guess you didn’t get the satire about a Solipsist who is in two minds about their sex!
You also now seem to be getting rather confused about whether you think I’m Fink or DevilFink. Perhaps you should make up your minds.
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DF
You credit me with two minds, how superior and neither like your attitude.
I can be sexist, although what I said to you was not sexism but fact, but you admit to nothing.
Deny you are male if you dare.
I am not in two minds about what sex I am and nor are those that portray a different sexuality from the one their body says they should be – they were born that way, just as we hetrosexuals, as imperfect as we are were, but I’m sure you will have a different stance on that statement also.
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It was a joke… satire… NOT REALITY! Do you understand?
…and yes, I do have a different stance. You are wrong. Many people with gender, or other body dysphoric problems ARE (to put it simplistically) in two minds about their bodies. Those who have no doubts whatsover about being in the ‘wrong’ body are in a tiny minority. Most go through agonies of confusion over many years.
By the way, are you talking to me, Devil’s Advocate, or both of us at the moment? I accept that if you say you’re female then that’s what you are, so will you please abandon this silly invention of yours that I and DA are the same person? I have told you that we’re not, so why do you persist?
I’m not going to tell you my sex or my gender, for the very reason that you gave yourself.
You can also scarcely criticise somebody for using the title “Ms” if you have failed to say that you are married and you prefer “Mrs”. “Ms” is used precisely to avoid making false assumptions and so causing offence. If you find it offensive that somebody is trying not to cause offence then it’s you who has the problem.
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PS there are not many ism taboo’s that I have not broken, I too like people who can laugh at themselves but I don’t think you are one of them, you are predisposed to have the last word or the last laugh.
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“I too like people who can laugh at themselves but I don’t think you are one of them, you are predisposed to have the last word or the last laugh”
…and again said without the least trace of irony!!! At least I can admit that I like to have the last word! How about you? (Oh no – I just blew it by asking you a question! Damn!)
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DF
Another contradiction from you, I don’t answer questions remember, so I will make this a final statement instead “au revoir”!
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Dear Mrs Guy ‘what gender problem?’ Fawkes
I didn’t say that you don’t answer my questions, you did! So how can it be my contradiction? I quote from your post just below this one:
“…and is why I refuse to reply to their questions”.
With (truly!) best wishes for the future from a delusional amalgam of different individuals, who must be considered only one because that’s less disturbing.
DevilFinkHelenOther
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S/He’s gone? Thank fuck for that. Maybe conversations can actually progress now. Where were we? :p
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…don’t speak too soon!
I think everyone else has long gone after all this drivel, so there’s probably not much left to discuss.
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There is still an issue I’m rather puzzled about – It seems from the 2013 regulations that a claimant can be disqualified if he/she “has limited capability for work by reason of the claimant’s own misconduct” or “fails without good cause to refrain from behaviour calculated to retard the claimant’s recovery to health”. On the face of it, these could be applied to vast numbers of claimants who smoke, drink, over-eat, etc., and yet it is not so applied. Why not? It would save this government millions of pounds.
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🙂
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f f
capitalist contruct…
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f f typo…construct
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What is a capitalist construct?
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P.S. I don’t mean that I don’t know what it means.
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f f
it is the way an economy is structured so that the bulk of labour from sweat of brow goes to those who are in control of the labour force/power/energies….i suffer an industrial injury, now if i work as they are trying to force me to, it will in fact worsen my condition….but at the same time they are not claiming that i contributed to my condition by doing work that caused my condition in the 1st place. to take precautions to mitigate/prevent my injuries would have made the work i once did untenable/uneconomic…work destroyed my health yet it is still acceptable for others to continue to do the type of work i once did….
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OBD – Can you say the work was, and why it was (and still is) being performed in a health-damaging way? It might help to make things clearer, and may be helpful to someone considering doing the same work.
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f f
in general it is RSI and using vibration tools. the long term affects on physiology are profound, as i found out to my cost…there i was doing my bit for the system for many many years, the only thing i gained is poor health….
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OBD – That’s totally unacceptable. I think your employer is legally obliged to find you a role which will not make your RSI any worse. If that makes the job or the company uneconomic then that’s their problem!
It’s strange which things give you RSI. I don’t have much problem with hammer drills and breakers, but if I do a lot of painting or hand sanding then my RSI gets much worse. I’m self-employed, so my boss is a complete ****!
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f f
i too am a tradesperson…so i know what you mean…there are screening mechanisms, but in most cases the horse has already bolted, the deeper affects can take many yrs to show up even after one has stopped doing that sort of work and moved on, it gradually creeps up on one….painting and sanding are dreadful in causing, (triggering existing) RSI’s, the physiological affects evoked when doing such work, are simply dreadful, as you will know. one’s impulse is to stop doing what triggers or worsens it, but cannot until the work is done to the satisfaction of self and competitive market….the willpower one’s needs to have to keep going is immense, it drains one in all aspects of self…but as you know we all need an income of some sort to keep reliable supply of vitals coming in…i too was latterly self employed in my working career, but eventually had to stop work, just bleeding knackered…
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If your RSI is so bad that you stopped doing any kind of work at all, then that’s by far the worst I’ve ever heard of! You have my sympathy. I can usually cope by using neoprene injury supports, or changing to some different tasks until it improves a bit. Being self-employed means I can usually choose what I do and when. I’ve also learned to be quite ambidextrous.
Have you seen http://www.rsiaction.org.uk/?
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f f
just skimmed the site, sums up the problems faced by sufferers…i have other physiological med conds like dia2, and dia2 neurophathy, ulnar claw hand, finger blanching. MRI reveals my cervical is bad and other damage ..collectively called HAVS my right shoulder/arm/hand is clapped out, muscle atrophy/neurological damage….am trying physio atm acupuncture etc, none of it seems effective though, (as yet)…i’m having more tests done, but like watching paint dry waiting for appointments….but all this does is highlight the need for a decent benefits/welfare system which i prefer to focus on…
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OBD – I can understand why you would prefer to focus on that. It’s an understandable choice. At least you can still use a computer and make good use of your time on sites like this. I guess it also helps to take your mind off the fact that there isn’t any kind of work you can do.
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f f
doing nothing suits me better… :-)…i struggle, therefore i am…i use my left arm more, but even that arm is showing fatigue…the only thing i truly think freud got right is, all activity should lead to inactivity… very likely like you, i have always been an activist…ironically many yrs ago, i was a union rep and safety rep…particularly keen on preventing industrial diseases asbestosis etc, another i litigious black hole…guess i just worked too hard for my own good…
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OBD – Perhaps you did work too hard for your own good, but obviously you’re doing your best to correct that mistake. Fatigue in your arm, that’s just appalling! How can you possibly cope? I’m fatigued from writing, so I’ll take yours and Freud’s advice and go for a little lie down… maybe tomorrow I’ll think about doing some work.
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I no how she feels dwp did it to me when I had cancer I could not claim anything so got 10k in to debt they sent me a letter sayinv I s lying that I had cancer so when my hair fell out from cemo itook letters into my local job center and made them all feel like crap nothing aas done about it tho still 10k in debt but cancer free xxx
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Cut the civil service and make them cunts jobless.
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Either a dumb conservative/lib dem voting cunt or a stupid and socially conservative DWP employee
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“Thankfully it is only the internet and I have faith that the majority of the voting public have brains”
Someone’s a fucking tory retard
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Tory retards fuck off
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Helen you’re a stupid tory slapper
now fuck off
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whoever murders helen
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Pingback: DWP blames cancer patient for her illness | Pride’s Purge | Maxwell's Mostly Irrelevant Musings
Ffs all you people getting worked up?! This is SO fake it’s amazing how anyone can believe this!
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HELLO,
MY NAME IS MICHELE FROM USA I WANT TO THANK DOCTOR SALAMI FOR SAVING MY LIFE AND BRINGING BACK MY HUSBAND BACK TO ME, I WAS VERY SICK WHEN MY HUSBAND ABANDON ME FOR ANOTHER WOMAN AND I BECAME FRUSTRATED AND WANTED TO COMMIT SUICIDE WHEN I FOUND DOCTOR SALAMI EMAIL ON THE INTERNET I DECIDED TO CONTACT HIM AND EXPLAIN MY PROBLEMS TO HIM BUT HE TOLD ME THAT I SHOULD NOT WORRY THAT I SHOULD LEAVE EVERY THING TO HIM BUT I NEVER BELIEVE HIM ON TILL 2DAYS TIME I BECAME HEAL AND MY HUSBAND CAME BACK TO ME. I REALLY WANT TO THANK DOCTOR SALAMI FOR SAVING MY LIFE AND MY FAMILY, YOU CAN AS WELL CONTACT HIM VIA EMAIL IF YOU ARE IN NEED OF HIS HELP : doctorsalami001@gmail.com
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hear…hear jeff
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jeff when i said hear-hear….i also mean’t to say watch out for for the tory shits goose stepping in the commons.. jack boots as well….THE FIGHT GOES ON…regards..sandra.
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my wife has been suffering from thyroid cancer which was confirmed to be stage four, the doctor told me there was little she could do since she wasn’t responding to treatment but my brother in law came to our rescue by ordering this hemp oil from rick Simpson foundation which he said has been helping some patient fight against cancer of various types so we decided to give it a chance, so far my wife is improving perfectly very well and presently she can walk around the house all by herself. I felt its necessary i let others who are suffering from this acute disease that once you have a good hemp oil it can really give one a sound second chance of living. if you happen to be in need of this hemp oil you can contact the foundation who supplied my brother in law with this email: ricksimpsonoilfoundation@gmail.com Wagner
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Reblogged this on Outside The Box and commented:
Unbelievable!
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Keep your family, kids and loved ones away from, “Devil’s Advocate” If they had their way your family would be dead to make more money for the govt. This person is a govt. shill who will do and say anything to protect the status quo. No one who works for the government is due or owed any respect or empathy.
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Reblogged this on Redmanc's Blog and commented:
cancer self-induced
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I would be very careful about this. It needs authenticating. I am already suspicious because the only part of the letter illustrated (with its incomprehensible, inhuman, illiterate, garbage spewed out by the morons at the DWP from their computers which are programmed by sycophantic mercenaries) is a very generic and unspecific part. With regard to the claim that the DWP is blaming the person for contributing to the cancer it is possible that this does not relate to that condition and the sender feels that is what they have done. It is also possibly a hoax. Considering that we already know there are miscreants operating for the government on the internet I wouldn’t put it past them to do this to stir up anger and hatred. It serves their purpose. And the more false claims that are spread around the easier it is for the DWP to cite false claims to deny culpability for crimes that we know they commit.
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There’s a link in the blogpost to the person the posted it on FB. Tell him you think it’s a hoax.
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when people vote for the tories they will always get this happening. they do not care for the ordinary man on the street
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Reblogged this on Mentally Wealthy and commented:
It may well be a badly written letter, or we may well be taking it out of context, but it’s setting a pretty poor precident. If we are saying they are stating thus claimant with cancer may be at fault / contributing to her illness, I can only wonder what they will suggest to the mentally ill.
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Please don’t misunderstand me Tom. I am acutely aware of how this government and society is descending into a psychotic, Orwellian pit of insanity. I am very concerned by the incredulous savagery of the people who have power over our lives. I am devastated by the pain, misery, anxiety, poverty and total destruction of people’s lives in this country as a result of it. But it is going to have to be a very serious battle to prevent the depraved destruction of millions, probably billions of people on this planet.
To avoid writing a tome on the subject: misinformation, intentional or not, on both sides, serves to fuel the crisis. The very fact that this claim is plausible is disturbing in itself and warrants discussion. The ‘oppressors’ are known to be infiltrating the internet and social media and will spread provocative misinformation to foster anxiety, fear and anger for the purpose of discrediting their opponents. This is well understood and ironically was analysed and consciously practiced by the CIA to ridicule ‘conspiracy theorists’ over the assassination of JFK back in 1963; it was a conspiracy in its own right. It is far worse than that in my opinion because it is in the nature of humans to do this for themselves. We all tend to grab at the first ‘explanation’ for our fears. The result is to polarise and inflame the problem. We have to be smarter than them.
This is NOT a criticism of you but it IS a cautionary observation.
So far my attempts to verify this claim have failed to produce any results. The page you link to has been unavailable to me for 2 days. I don’t know if you can still access it. The Facebook ID of this Chris Nelson is in the url of the link and that ID is not available to me either. You might try it from your location to check it from there.
For illustrative purposes my Fuckbase ID is 1632672560 and my homepage url is:
https://www.facebook.com/1632672560
and your FB ID is 100003010435655 and can be reached via:
https://www.facebook.com/100003010435655
The Chris Nelson your link points to has the FBID 10152365227298787 which translates to:
https://www.facebook.com/10152365227298787
But I get the message “Sorry, this page isn’t available”
We have to stop this descent into depravity. We have to stop ‘them’ doing it. We can’t afford to be criticising ‘them’ as if they give a damn and especially not with false claims. They are already fucked in the head and are fuelled by criticism and complaint. We all make mistakes, that is human, but we have to find a way to overcome this collapse of society. Spreading false rumours like wildfire may ignite anger and opposition to the government but it seems more likely to give the government something to ‘blame’ to justify more oppression.
And to clarify my position, because your retort indicated a misunderstanding, my focus of concern in my comment was, and still is, on the subject of authenticating claims and not on whether the claim is valid or not. Put in ‘us and them’ terms I am concerned to validate this claim because if it is true it needs attention and if it is false it will do ‘us’ more harm than ‘them’.
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How stupid can these people be, do they also blame children who are born with cancer. Who is going to employ these people anyway when they have regular appt/checkups/treatment. My husband went for regular treatment a day a month for over 8 years till he died. That doesn’t include chemo or in hospital because of infections. how could he work or what person would have employed him??? What about the drug addicts the alcoholic or those suffering depression are they not contributing to their condition?
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what do you expect from an uncaring government that only want to give there own self a pay rise expences rise
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I don’t think any human being would wish cancer on themselves,having to go through months of chemo attending hospital having ct scans. At the back of your mind you have doubt will I be cured. Having suffered from this horrible disease I can assure you no one would want it Margaret Kerr
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Very well put & too true as I too was a long time civil servant & was often frustrated at having to implement illogical policies. However as another writer stated, social media will NOT change anything, these people have to make ‘real’ noise, go to the media, write to their political reps, ask for an explanation as to ‘how’ this poor woman contributed to her disease. Many people cause their ill health, alcoholics, smokers, drug addicts, obesity, some unknowingly as they find out after the fact that something they did or ingested was harmful, & some illnesses the government is directly responsible for, i.e. polluted environment, NOT banning harmful substances, i.e. tobacco, excessive sugar & salt, artificial sweeteners, numerous additives to food, etc.
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The DWP playing god ? I had no idea there were such a body to give out such definite and final decisions with such righteous accuracy ! This government and related departments such as ATOS are bile ridden parasites on the suffering ! Absolute fuckin shame on all whom are employed taking these hard line statements and decisions out on the suffering !
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